Esperanza you reminded me of my paternal grandparents marriage story in Jerez Zacatecas in 1914. My 20 year old grandfather Epitacio Castanon was away from home with his donkey caravan selling booze when he was robbed by bandits. They were going to take his mules and he told them if they did he’d be out of business with no more booze to sell in their territory so they let him keep his donkeys. When he got home to El Durazno he found his friend had stolen his girlfriend and married her. So my grandfather stole his friends jilted girlfriend Juana Sanchez. She was still 14 so he left her at the priests house for 3 days until she turned 15 then he married her in a civil ceremony and then later in a church ceremony.. She said he stole her from her home so she had to marry him. They remained married until his death in 1965. Your story is the first other ‘stolen’ bride story I had heard. Thank you for sharing the memory.
Linda in B.C.

Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
Here’s yet another example of acceptable unions in small towns, although not
recognized by church or civilly until actually married:

My mother-in-law “fue robada”, which was often done in the olden days were
dating was not permitted. The two fell in love, and made a pact whereby she
would literally be swept away (on a horse) and taken to the hills for a
weekend. Upon returning, everyone knew that this was now a union, and she went to
stay at her mother-in-law’s house where within a time when all the “hoopla”
of the event subsided, they made plans to marry quietly through the church and
civilly. She has never told me if this occurred before or after my husband
was born. Obviously, this was a widely accepted way of getting together with
two families who would not have normally blessed the marriage (my mother in
law came from an extremely poor family while my father in law came from a
wealthier family). To this day, neither sides of the family really intermingle
– and this is a very small town!

I am therefore thinking that hijo natural could have been from such a union
while subsequent siblings were hijos legitimos. So far as the law is
concerned, only the legitimate children of such a union could inherit property.

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

Linda,
I actually did an ethnology on both of my in-laws many years ago. My
father-in-law insists that this arrangement was a “pact”. She would go to the
church to clean with her two other friends, and she would wear a red dress. His
friend, who actually did the sweeping would be able to identify her this way.
However, her version is different: she states she was unaware. I suspect
she says this to protect her status in front of her adult children. I tend to
believe my father-in-law.

Someone mentioned that they doubted children born out of wedlock or even
conceived out of wedlock was not important as it was before – this is not true
with some families, even today! My surrogate family (from Los Altos, Jalisco
and La Barca, Jalisco) actually disowned their 15 year old daughter when she
had to marry because of pregnancy (she is now 38 years old and still happily
married).Today, this young lady who married (my niece) enjoys a relationship
with her family, but they do not accept her husband – despite the fact that
they have been married close to 25 years!

Her younger male siblings followed the old tradition: their parents had to
go to the female parents house and formally ask for the bride’s hand in
marriage on behalf of their sons. With the assent of the bride’s father, the
marriage was considered blessed, and was planned thereafter.

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

Linda,
I actually did an ethnology on both of my in-laws many years ago. My
father-in-law insists that this arrangement was a “pact”. She would go to the
church to clean with her two other friends, and she would wear a red dress. His
friend, who actually did the sweeping would be able to identify her this way.
However, her version is different: she states she was unaware. I suspect
she says this to protect her status in front of her adult children. I tend to
believe my father-in-law.

Someone mentioned that they doubted children born out of wedlock or even
conceived out of wedlock was not important as it was before – this is not true
with some families, even today! My surrogate family (from Los Altos, Jalisco
and La Barca, Jalisco) actually disowned their 15 year old daughter when she
had to marry because of pregnancy (she is now 38 years old and still happily
married).Today, this young lady who married (my niece) enjoys a relationship
with her family, but they do not accept her husband – despite the fact that
they have been married close to 25 years!

Her younger male siblings followed the old tradition: their parents had to
go to the female parents house and formally ask for the bride’s hand in
marriage on behalf of their sons. With the assent of the bride’s father, the
marriage was considered blessed, and was planned thereafter.

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

Now you’ve taken me to my maternal side of the family. My gr-grandmother was date raped at age 18 and became pregnant with my grandmother, that was 1901 in Tamazula Jalisco. Her father put her out of the house because she had sullied the family name. He worked with her attacker and never blamed him. She moved into an abandoned house the equivilante of 3 blocks from her father and her brothers would bring her her ‘dario’ or daily ration until after the birth of my grandmother. She continued to live there alone with my grandmother for 3 years gleaning corn from the fields and making taquitos to sell along the roadside to people going to Colima. After 3 years her father arranged a marriage to an older man he worked with and he moved into her home with her and my grandmother. She did not get a vote on whether she wanted to marry him or not, after the marriage her father welcomed her back into his home.. Life was hard and the standards of the day didn’t make things any
easier for a woman. I have nothing but respect for the fortitude our forbears showed, they were survivors.
Just a side note, this rapist did it to another girl a bit later and her brothers stabbed him to death! Honor was handled in many different ways… Genetics makes him my gr-grandfather but I have been unable to find anything on him at all. My grandmother always said he was a sailer from Spain… that’ the story anyway…
Linda in B.C.

Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
Linda,
I actually did an ethnology on both of my in-laws many years ago. My
father-in-law insists that this arrangement was a “pact”. She would go to the
church to clean with her two other friends, and she would wear a red dress. His
friend, who actually did the sweeping would be able to identify her this way.
However, her version is different: she states she was unaware. I suspect
she says this to protect her status in front of her adult children. I tend to
believe my father-in-law.

Someone mentioned that they doubted children born out of wedlock or even
conceived out of wedlock was not important as it was before – this is not true
with some families, even today! My surrogate family (from Los Altos, Jalisco
and La Barca, Jalisco) actually disowned their 15 year old daughter when she
had to marry because of pregnancy (she is now 38 years old and still happily
married).Today, this young lady who married (my niece) enjoys a relationship
with her family, but they do not accept her husband – despite the fact that
they have been married close to 25 years!

Her younger male siblings followed the old tradition: their parents had to
go to the female parents house and formally ask for the bride’s hand in
marriage on behalf of their sons. With the assent of the bride’s father, the
marriage was considered blessed, and was planned thereafter.

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

Now you’ve taken me to my maternal side of the family. My gr-grandmother was date raped at age 18 and became pregnant with my grandmother, that was 1901 in Tamazula Jalisco. Her father put her out of the house because she had sullied the family name. He worked with her attacker and never blamed him. She moved into an abandoned house the equivilante of 3 blocks from her father and her brothers would bring her her ‘dario’ or daily ration until after the birth of my grandmother. She continued to live there alone with my grandmother for 3 years gleaning corn from the fields and making taquitos to sell along the roadside to people going to Colima. After 3 years her father arranged a marriage to an older man he worked with and he moved into her home with her and my grandmother. She did not get a vote on whether she wanted to marry him or not, after the marriage her father welcomed her back into his home.. Life was hard and the standards of the day didn’t make things any
easier for a woman. I have nothing but respect for the fortitude our forbears showed, they were survivors.
Just a side note, this rapist did it to another girl a bit later and her brothers stabbed him to death! Honor was handled in many different ways… Genetics makes him my gr-grandfather but I have been unable to find anything on him at all. My grandmother always said he was a sailer from Spain… that’ the story anyway…
Linda in B.C.

Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
Linda,
I actually did an ethnology on both of my in-laws many years ago. My
father-in-law insists that this arrangement was a “pact”. She would go to the
church to clean with her two other friends, and she would wear a red dress. His
friend, who actually did the sweeping would be able to identify her this way.
However, her version is different: she states she was unaware. I suspect
she says this to protect her status in front of her adult children. I tend to
believe my father-in-law.

Someone mentioned that they doubted children born out of wedlock or even
conceived out of wedlock was not important as it was before – this is not true
with some families, even today! My surrogate family (from Los Altos, Jalisco
and La Barca, Jalisco) actually disowned their 15 year old daughter when she
had to marry because of pregnancy (she is now 38 years old and still happily
married).Today, this young lady who married (my niece) enjoys a relationship
with her family, but they do not accept her husband – despite the fact that
they have been married close to 25 years!

Her younger male siblings followed the old tradition: their parents had to
go to the female parents house and formally ask for the bride’s hand in
marriage on behalf of their sons. With the assent of the bride’s father, the
marriage was considered blessed, and was planned thereafter.

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

Latina1955@aol.com wrote:

>Here’s yet another example of acceptable unions in small towns, although not
>recognized by church or civilly until actually married:
>
>My mother-in-law “fue robada”, which was often done in the olden days were
>dating was not permitted. The two fell in love, and made a pact whereby she
>would literally be swept away (on a horse) and taken to the hills for a
>weekend.
>
WOW. My Great Grandmother Antonia Santa Maria, was supposedly stolen
away on horseback by my Great Grandfather, Francisco Diaz in the
Tepetongo Area. They stayed together until separated by death. Thanks
Esperanza for bringing this up as I though it was a unique situation.
guess not.

joseph

ps: read her story: “Antonia Santa Maria’s Story”
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/13828

> Upon returning, everyone knew that this was now a union, and she went to
>stay at her mother-in-law’s house where within a time when all the “hoopla”
>of the event subsided, they made plans to marry quietly through the church and
>civilly. She has never told me if this occurred before or after my husband
>was born. Obviously, this was a widely accepted way of getting together with
>two families who would not have normally blessed the marriage (my mother in
>law came from an extremely poor family while my father in law came from a
>wealthier family). To this day, neither sides of the family really intermingle
>- and this is a very small town!
>
>I am therefore thinking that hijo natural could have been from such a union
>while subsequent siblings were hijos legitimos. So far as the law is
>concerned, only the legitimate children of such a union could inherit property.
>
>Esperanza
>Chicagoland area

Latina1955@aol.com wrote:

>Here’s yet another example of acceptable unions in small towns, although not
>recognized by church or civilly until actually married:
>
>My mother-in-law “fue robada”, which was often done in the olden days were
>dating was not permitted. The two fell in love, and made a pact whereby she
>would literally be swept away (on a horse) and taken to the hills for a
>weekend.
>
WOW. My Great Grandmother Antonia Santa Maria, was supposedly stolen
away on horseback by my Great Grandfather, Francisco Diaz in the
Tepetongo Area. They stayed together until separated by death. Thanks
Esperanza for bringing this up as I though it was a unique situation.
guess not.

joseph

ps: read her story: “Antonia Santa Maria’s Story”
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/13828

> Upon returning, everyone knew that this was now a union, and she went to
>stay at her mother-in-law’s house where within a time when all the “hoopla”
>of the event subsided, they made plans to marry quietly through the church and
>civilly. She has never told me if this occurred before or after my husband
>was born. Obviously, this was a widely accepted way of getting together with
>two families who would not have normally blessed the marriage (my mother in
>law came from an extremely poor family while my father in law came from a
>wealthier family). To this day, neither sides of the family really intermingle
>- and this is a very small town!
>
>I am therefore thinking that hijo natural could have been from such a union
>while subsequent siblings were hijos legitimos. So far as the law is
>concerned, only the legitimate children of such a union could inherit property.
>
>Esperanza
>Chicagoland area

There is a difference in “stolen brides” situations!

there are brides that are stolen, so they are called “robadas”, which mean the bride was not required in love but raped; against the will,
and there are brides that are called “juidas” with the letter “j” sounding gutural like in Jimenez, this brides make an appointment to be swept away by the romeo.
Next step is to be married, frecuently when child is on the way, some “juidos” or “huidos” present their respects to the old ones and ask for pardon.
My father asked for my sister-in-law´s hand to her father for my older brother, that family were living in Veracruz deep in the jungle at tha time;
Don Andres, the father was very “catholic” so he set the condition that a priest has to ask for such hand. My father told my brother “do what you have to do, you are on your own, I have no time nor money for a priest transportation”, so my brother and his bride make an appointment, she jumped trough the wooden window on a horse and with my brother she became a “juida”.
After “honeymoon” they got married and when she was very pregnant they went together into the jungle and ask her parents for pardon.
It is a say in the family when somebody refers she was stolen, other one clarifies “no, she went on her will”.

Erlinda Castanon-Long escribió:
Esperanza you reminded me of my paternal grandparents marriage story in Jerez Zacatecas in 1914. My 20 year old grandfather Epitacio Castanon was away from home with his donkey caravan selling booze when he was robbed by bandits. They were going to take his mules and he told them if they did he’d be out of business with no more booze to sell in their territory so they let him keep his donkeys. When he got home to El Durazno he found his friend had stolen his girlfriend and married her. So my grandfather stole his friends jilted girlfriend Juana Sanchez. She was still 14 so he left her at the priests house for 3 days until she turned 15 then he married her in a civil ceremony and then later in a church ceremony.. She said he stole her from her home so she had to marry him. They remained married until his death in 1965. Your story is the first other ‘stolen’ bride story I had heard. Thank you for sharing the memory.
Linda in B.C.

Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
Here’s yet another example of acceptable unions in small towns, although not
recognized by church or civilly until actually married:

My mother-in-law “fue robada”, which was often done in the olden days were
dating was not permitted. The two fell in love, and made a pact whereby she
would literally be swept away (on a horse) and taken to the hills for a
weekend. Upon returning, everyone knew that this was now a union, and she went to
stay at her mother-in-law’s house where within a time when all the “hoopla”
of the event subsided, they made plans to marry quietly through the church and
civilly. She has never told me if this occurred before or after my husband
was born. Obviously, this was a widely accepted way of getting together with
two families who would not have normally blessed the marriage (my mother in
law came from an extremely poor family while my father in law came from a
wealthier family). To this day, neither sides of the family really intermingle
– and this is a very small town!

I am therefore thinking that hijo natural could have been from such a union
while subsequent siblings were hijos legitimos. So far as the law is
concerned, only the legitimate children of such a union could inherit property.

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

There is a difference in “stolen brides” situations!

there are brides that are stolen, so they are called “robadas”, which mean the bride was not required in love but raped; against the will,
and there are brides that are called “juidas” with the letter “j” sounding gutural like in Jimenez, this brides make an appointment to be swept away by the romeo.
Next step is to be married, frecuently when child is on the way, some “juidos” or “huidos” present their respects to the old ones and ask for pardon.
My father asked for my sister-in-law´s hand to her father for my older brother, that family were living in Veracruz deep in the jungle at tha time;
Don Andres, the father was very “catholic” so he set the condition that a priest has to ask for such hand. My father told my brother “do what you have to do, you are on your own, I have no time nor money for a priest transportation”, so my brother and his bride make an appointment, she jumped trough the wooden window on a horse and with my brother she became a “juida”.
After “honeymoon” they got married and when she was very pregnant they went together into the jungle and ask her parents for pardon.
It is a say in the family when somebody refers she was stolen, other one clarifies “no, she went on her will”.

Erlinda Castanon-Long escribió:
Esperanza you reminded me of my paternal grandparents marriage story in Jerez Zacatecas in 1914. My 20 year old grandfather Epitacio Castanon was away from home with his donkey caravan selling booze when he was robbed by bandits. They were going to take his mules and he told them if they did he’d be out of business with no more booze to sell in their territory so they let him keep his donkeys. When he got home to El Durazno he found his friend had stolen his girlfriend and married her. So my grandfather stole his friends jilted girlfriend Juana Sanchez. She was still 14 so he left her at the priests house for 3 days until she turned 15 then he married her in a civil ceremony and then later in a church ceremony.. She said he stole her from her home so she had to marry him. They remained married until his death in 1965. Your story is the first other ‘stolen’ bride story I had heard. Thank you for sharing the memory.
Linda in B.C.

Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
Here’s yet another example of acceptable unions in small towns, although not
recognized by church or civilly until actually married:

My mother-in-law “fue robada”, which was often done in the olden days were
dating was not permitted. The two fell in love, and made a pact whereby she
would literally be swept away (on a horse) and taken to the hills for a
weekend. Upon returning, everyone knew that this was now a union, and she went to
stay at her mother-in-law’s house where within a time when all the “hoopla”
of the event subsided, they made plans to marry quietly through the church and
civilly. She has never told me if this occurred before or after my husband
was born. Obviously, this was a widely accepted way of getting together with
two families who would not have normally blessed the marriage (my mother in
law came from an extremely poor family while my father in law came from a
wealthier family). To this day, neither sides of the family really intermingle
– and this is a very small town!

I am therefore thinking that hijo natural could have been from such a union
while subsequent siblings were hijos legitimos. So far as the law is
concerned, only the legitimate children of such a union could inherit property.

Esperanza
Chicagoland area