Irma,

That’s great news that you benefitted from the help of someone who volunteered to help with someone’s brick wall.

I hope to assist one of our newest members with the beginning of his research and while it might not be a “brick wall” per say, it is a wall.

In the beginning, you don’t really have a clear path or idea  as to how to begin or proceed with your research, thus if feels like a brick wall.

Thanks everyone for your input.
Alicia

________________________________
From: “Gomezlucero, Irma”
To: “research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org”
Sent: Wed, March 17, 2010 9:01:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Brick Walls—Research Digest, Vol 50, Issue 16

I agree that this was a great idea to pose our brick walls to those who attended the conference.  As a member of the Nueva Galicia Genealogical Society, we have some of our brick walls posted on our website already. 
Earlier this month, I attended the Conference, and have already benefited from this exercise.  Another attendee, Jerry Munoz was able to help me with one of my brick walls.  His assistance helped me greatly with my San Juan de los Lagos, Jal. del Portillo and Gallardo lines.  I only hope that I can help the individual whose information I drew.  I am working on it. 

I look forward to attending the next conference in Southern California.  I hope that Ranchos members from the south can make it happen.

Irma Gomez Gtz.
N. Calif.

Great idea Jose,

Here is my brick wall:

For years I have looked and looked for anything on my father’s maternal ancestors. His paternal ancestors I was able to track clear back to the late 1600s in Jerez, Zac. with the help of several members of NR.

I cannot find my father’s mother or her parents anywhere. Her name was Gorgonia Garcia, the daughter of Ignacio Garcia and Maria Guadalupe Rodriguez, very common surnames. I can’t find anything on my father or his sister, either. I did find the information on their father, which is why I was able to track those to the late 1600s.

My father was born in Jerez in 1903, and his sister was born in nearby Guadalupe a few years earlier, so Gorgonia had to have been living in Jerez or Guadalupe at one time. The records for the first years of the 20th century were burned during the revolution–that is what a priest in Jerez told my father. Gorgonia died when my father was a toddler, so all he knew about her was her name and the names of her parents.

Emilie

Port Orchard, WA

> From: igomezlucero@csus.edu
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:01:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Brick Walls—Research Digest, Vol 50, Issue 16
>
> I agree that this was a great idea to pose our brick walls to those who attended the conference. As a member of the Nueva Galicia Genealogical Society, we have some of our brick walls posted on our website already.
> Earlier this month, I attended the Conference, and have already benefited from this exercise. Another attendee, Jerry Munoz was able to help me with one of my brick walls. His assistance helped me greatly with my San Juan de los Lagos, Jal. del Portillo and Gallardo lines. I only hope that I can help the individual whose information I drew. I am working on it.
>
> I look forward to attending the next conference in Southern California. I hope that Ranchos members from the south can make it happen.
>
> Irma Gomez Gtz.
> N. Calif.
> ———————————————————————-
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
> From: jcdl1944@hotmail.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] “brick walls”
> Message-ID:
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> At the Nueva Galicia Genealogical Society conference held March 6, 2010, they had a “brick wall” demo family tree with paper cut-out leaves on it. The idea was that a member could write down on a paper leaf his/her “brick wall” in his own genealogy research and perhaps someone else would choose his/her leaf and help break through it. I think it’s a great concept, except that it might’ve been better to let any and all choose the same leaf.
>
> My question is this: since we already experience daily with questions from various members, why couldn’t each of us create a file/folder listing our own “brick walls” in it? These files could stay permanent and updated as needed.
>
> Perhaps other members could browse through these files and find one that they could tackle and help break through it? In addition to periodic inquiries of our members, this might prove to be a good challenge for our own genalogists that love mysteries?
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Joseph de Leon
>
>
> **********************

It seems like the information that you are looking for is available through
the Family History Centers follow this URL
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=topicdetails&subject=521213&subject_disp=M%C3%A9xico%2C+Zacatecas%2C+Jerez+%2D+Church+records&columns=*,0,0
it
will take you to the Catholic church records that are available for Jerez.

Saludos desde Lago Salado,
Eduardo H Seoane

Ed, I have the following film at my FHC for the dates that my father (Guadalupe Olague, born Jan. 28, 1903 in Jerez) was born, but I don’t find him listed there:

0439867 Baptisms 1899-1903 Iglesia Immaculada

I also have never found a marriage listed for Gorgonia Garcia and my grandfather Francisco Olague. Maybe they weren’t married and maybe they never baptized their children. I guess Gorgonia will remain a mystery.

Thanks,

Emilie

Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:51:52 -0600
> From: eduardohseoane@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Brick Walls—Research Digest, Vol 50, Issue 16
>
> It seems like the information that you are looking for is available through
> the Family History Centers follow this URL
> http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=topicdetails&subject=521213&subject_disp=M%C3%A9xico%2C+Zacatecas%2C+Jerez+%2D+Church+records&columns=*,0,0
> it
> will take you to the Catholic church records that are available for Jerez.
>
> Saludos desde Lago Salado,
> Eduardo H Seoane

If they ever came to the United States there should be border crossing
information on them that might indicate place of birth parents etc….
Additionally in the US censuses it usually indicates in what year they
immigrated to the USA. If you can find that information it should help you
to locate your ancestors. In the boarder crossings pay close attention to
who your ancestors are going to visit or traveling with them. Back then very
few people crossed illegally. You can access border crossing records and
census records at Ancestry.com. If your ancestors were in Mexico in 1930
that census is available online at http://pilot.familysearch.org but you
have to know the municipality and city and state where they resided. it will
give the age how long they have been married children and ages of the
children. Good luck!

Saludos desde Lago Salado
Eduardo H Seoane

Ed,

No, Gorgonia died in Mexico at the turn of the 20th century when my father was a toddler. His father immigrated with him and his sister and his brother and his family in 1913 when my father was 10 years old, and they never returned to Mexico except that one time in the early 1960s when my father went to Jerez to try to get his birth certificate he needed to get his retirement from Westinghouse. There were no records, so my father paid a lawyer and a judge in Jerez to give him one. My father became a naturalized US citizen in 1941, and I sent for those records but they only state that his parents were born in Mexico, no city, etc.

Emilie

Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:23:45 -0800
> From: eduardohseoane@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Brick Walls—Research Digest, Vol 50, Issue 16
>
> If they ever came to the United States there should be border crossing
> information on them that might indicate place of birth parents etc….
> Additionally in the US censuses it usually indicates in what year they
> immigrated to the USA. If you can find that information it should help you
> to locate your ancestors. In the boarder crossings pay close attention to
> who your ancestors are going to visit or traveling with them. Back then very
> few people crossed illegally. You can access border crossing records and
> census records at Ancestry.com. If your ancestors were in Mexico in 1930
> that census is available online at http://pilot.familysearch.org but you
> have to know the municipality and city and state where they resided. it will
> give the age how long they have been married children and ages of the
> children. Good luck!
>
> Saludos desde Lago Salado
> Eduardo H Seoane

Emilie:

you go www.familysearch.org after you put searches .. FRancisco Olague and go to Pedigree source file
5487396-0302109164940

[refine search] [Print]

Do you talk with Salvador Cabral Valdez? he is a wonderfull person I don’t Know if he is in member of nuestros ranchos but inthe other genealogy forum I think yes, many times he helps every body and the information I will give you is from him.. in his page you can get or ask him from you father and family Francisco Olague 17 sep 1872 Salitrillo Zacatecas son of Pedro Olague and Rafaela Tinajero..he has all your tree he is an expert in Zacatecas and a good person..

http://jerez-zacatecas.galeon.com/

your grandfather you can find im here:
h/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=AncestorSearchResults.asp%3Ffirst%5Fname%3DRafael%26last%5Fname%3DReynoso%2By%2BMartinez%26fathers%5Ffirst%5Fname%3D%26fathers%5Flast%5Fname%3D%26mothers%5Ffirst%5Fname%3D%26mothers%5Flast%5Fname%3D%26spouses%5Ffirst%5Fname%3D%26spouses%5Flast%5Fname%3D%26from%5Fdate%3D%26to%5Fdate%3D%26date%5Frange%3D%26standardize%3D%26juris1index%3D%26juris2index%3D%26juris1friendly%3D%26juris2friendly%3D%26event%5Findex%3D%26testing%3D%26juris1%3D%26juris2%3D%26juris3%3D

saludos Lety Reynoso

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: as HOT as always
www.hotmailhotness.com.mx

We have a Francisco Olague crist 21 sep 1872 son of Pedro Olague and Rafaela Feliz C600838 0445163 tepetongo Zacatecas.. I thik is the same born in Salitrillo because the parents are the same the second name of Rafaela Tinajero is Feliz… Rafaela Tinajero Feliz… they married 21 mar 1863 Tepetongo Zacatecas she is crist 23 oct 1843 daugter of Hilario Tinajero Feliz and Maria Teodosia de jesus Flores Feliz Suriano I think what Pedro Olague is Pedro Olague Torres born in 1831 tepetongo, son of Ysidro Olague and Norberta Torres C600834 film0445159 but for that you need see the married record of Rafaela and Pedro M606212 film 0445237
21 mar 1863 Tepetongo Zacatecas

Lety reynoso..tell us more about Gorgonia…

_________________________________________________________________
¿Te crees fan de Messenger? Compruébalo
www.vivirmessenger.com

So did you look at the border crossing records for each individual that
immigrated? There is also the possibility that members of the family visited
the US or went to Mexico when children were born and baptized or for
marriages or deaths. They did not necesarily need to be your grandfather but
could have been one of his siblings, parents, uncles, cousins, etc…. So,
their could be additional border crossings. These records are not the same
as the naturalization record. Often they will give the place of birth, age,
traveling companions, place traveling too, people they are going to visit,
different dates in which they had entered the US. If it were my family, I
would definitely look for them.

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Emilie Garcia
wrote:

>
> Ed,
>
>
>
> No, Gorgonia died in Mexico at the turn of the 20th century when my father
> was a toddler. His father immigrated with him and his sister and his
> brother and his family in 1913 when my father was 10 years old, and they
> never returned to Mexico except that one time in the early 1960s when my
> father went to Jerez to try to get his birth certificate he needed to get
> his retirement from Westinghouse. There were no records, so my father paid a
> lawyer and a judge in Jerez to give him one. My father became a naturalized
> US citizen in 1941, and I sent for those records but they only state that
> his parents were born in Mexico, no city, etc.
>
>
> Emilie
>
> Port Orchard, WA
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:23:45 -0800
> > From: eduardohseoane@gmail.com
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Brick Walls—Research Digest, Vol 50,
> Issue 16
> >
> > If they ever came to the United States there should be border crossing
> > information on them that might indicate place of birth parents etc….
> > Additionally in the US censuses it usually indicates in what year they
> > immigrated to the USA. If you can find that information it should help
> you
> > to locate your ancestors. In the boarder crossings pay close attention to
> > who your ancestors are going to visit or traveling with them. Back then
> very
> > few people crossed illegally. You can access border crossing records and
> > census records at Ancestry.com. If your ancestors were in Mexico in 1930
> > that census is available online at http://pilot.familysearch.org but you
> > have to know the municipality and city and state where they resided. it
> will
> > give the age how long they have been married children and ages of the
> > children. Good luck!
> >
> > Saludos desde Lago Salado
> > Eduardo H Seoane
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>

Lety –

Yes, Salvador, who is a member of NR, and another person in Mexico City and one in Jerez and one in California are the ones who were able to help me the most with my trees on my Olague/Arellano side. In fact, Salvador’s tree is the same as mine when you go back several generations, and he downloaded my tree from Rootsweb and he merged it with his so that I could get those ancestors we share from way back in the 1700s and late 1600s. I just haven’t uploaded my revised tree to NR yet because I don’t know how.

What happened is that the records in Jerez are almost complete for the Olague/Arellano, but there is nothing on my father himself or his sister or his mother’s parents. I think the records from 1890 to 1903 were burned or maybe not microfilmed, or my father and his sister were not baptized. I can’t find a marriage record for Francisco and Gorgonio either.

Thank you for your time; I appreciate it.

Emilie

Port Orchard, Washington State, USA

> From: siriuslr@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:19:25 -0600
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisco Olague
> > >
> Emilie:
>
> you go www.familysearch.org after you put searches .. FRancisco Olague and go to Pedigree source file
> 5487396-0302109164940
> > > >
> Do you talk with Salvador Cabral Valdez? he is a wonderfull person I don’t Know if he is in member of nuestros ranchos but inthe other genealogy forum I think yes, many times he helps every body and the information I will give you is from him.. in his page you can get or ask him from you father and family Francisco Olague 17 sep 1872 Salitrillo Zacatecas son of Pedro Olague and Rafaela Tinajero..he has all your tree he is an expert in Zacatecas and a good person..
>
> > http://jerez-zacatecas.galeon.com/
>
> your grandfather you can find im here:
> h/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=AncestorSearchResults.asp%3Ffirst%5Fname%3DRafael%26last%5Fname%3DReynoso%2By%2BMartinez%26fathers%5Ffirst%5Fname%3D%26fathers%5Flast%5Fname%3D%26mothers%5Ffirst%5Fname%3D%26mothers%5Flast%5Fname%3D%26spouses%5Ffirst%5Fname%3D%26spouses%5Flast%5Fname%3D%26from%5Fdate%3D%26to%5Fdate%3D%26date%5Frange%3D%26standardize%3D%26juris1index%3D%26juris2index%3D%26juris1friendly%3D%26juris2friendly%3D%26event%5Findex%3D%26testing%3D%26juris1%3D%26juris2%3D%26juris3%3D
>
> >
> saludos Lety Reynoso
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>

If you provide more information, like the name of the siblings, (uncles and
aunts of your father) of your grandfather then maybe someone in the group
could look for those border crossings on Ancestry.com

Lety –

Yes, those are my great grandparents Pedro and Rafaela. They were from Tepetongo and Salitrillo. Pedro died in Mexico, but Rafaela came to the US with some of her sons and daughters and she died in Colorado in 1941. She lived to be almost 100 years old, but I don’t remember her.

For some reason Rafaela and her brothers and sisters used various surnames from one record to another: Tinajero, Felix, Flores, Suriano, others. Hilario and Teodosia were her parents, but Pedro’s parents in his marriage record were Jose Santiago Olague and Eduviges Suriano. Hilario also used different surnames: Tinajero, Felix. Some of the Felix Arellano changed their name to Tinajero—I don’t know why.

I am also descended from the de la Torre, but that is way, way back.

I wish I could tell you more about Gorgonia, but she died when my father was still a baby, and all he knew about his mother was her name and the names of her parents. I have been looking for years for Gorgonia and her parents, Ygnacio Garcia and Maria Guadalupe Rodriguez, and I can’t find anything.

Thank you again,

Emilie

> From: siriuslr@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:41:32 -0600
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Olague
>
>
> We have a Francisco Olague crist 21 sep 1872 son of Pedro Olague and Rafaela Feliz C600838 0445163 tepetongo Zacatecas.. I thik is the same born in Salitrillo because the parents are the same the second name of Rafaela Tinajero is Feliz… Rafaela Tinajero Feliz… they married 21 mar 1863 Tepetongo Zacatecas she is crist 23 oct 1843 daugter of Hilario Tinajero Feliz and Maria Teodosia de jesus Flores Feliz Suriano I think what Pedro Olague is Pedro Olague Torres born in 1831 tepetongo, son of Ysidro Olague and Norberta Torres C600834 film0445159 but for that you need see the married record of Rafaela and Pedro M606212 film 0445237
> 21 mar 1863 Tepetongo Zacatecas >
>
> Lety reynoso..tell us more about Gorgonia…
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> ¿Te crees fan de Messenger? Compruébalo
> www.vivirmessenger.com

Ed – Yes, I have scoured the immigration and border crossing records for my father’s uncles, cousins, and their in-laws who crossed over in 1913. I don’t find anything on them after the initial crossing. It appears that none of them ever returned to Mexico, nor did they keep up a correspondence with anyone back there. My father’s mother had died in Mexico as well as all his grandparents except for the one grandmother Rafaela Tinajero, his father’s mother, who they had brought with them.

The border crossing records from Juarez to El Paso don’t state who they left behind, who their last contact was, only that their last residence in Mexico was Chihuahua, Mexico, no city, nothing else, that they were crossing over to remain permanently in the United States, and no destination was given.

My father and mother went to Jerez in July 1965 to try to obtain a copy of his birth certificate for retirement, but the priest there told him that the records had been burned. He then went to the Civil Registry where he was told to get a lawyer. The lawyer had a judge issue him a belated birth certificate due to his birth never having been recorded previously according to the law, and I still have the copy. My father died the next year.

In the copy of the “Papel Especial Para Certificados de las Actas del Registro Civil” only the names of his mother and father and his grandparents are listed (all deceased), no place of origin, etc. What is interesting to me (I don’t read Spanish well) is that there were two witnesses, Severiano Munoz Escobedo and Monico Soriano Carrillo, “mayores de edad y vecinos de esta ciudad, quienes bajo protesta de decir verdad, manifestaron ser cierto lo que a los personas y hechos de que se trata”.

It seems to me these men were testifying that they had known my father’s parents, but I don’t know if they had known his grandparents who had died long before. My father does have Sorianos and Escobedos in his lines, but I have not been able to tie these two men to any of my father’s relatives in the records of Jerez or Tepetongo. Perhaps they were just neighbors, or who knows. My mother said my father was throwing money around down there.

People down there are poor and could easily be bribed. These two witnesses are probably dead by now. I wouldn’t know how to contact anyone down there to hunt them or their children down. It has been so long now, 45 years. I remember my father said he couldn’t find anyone who had known his relatives; he and his father had been gone from Jerez for over 50 years.

Most people down there have zero interest in genealogy, nor do they understand why anyone would want to find such long dead ancestors in the cemeteries, which according to one of my fellow NR members, are very unkempt and deteriorating. My father was very disappointed about the condition of the “jardin” in the plaza that had a cute little gazebo where he said musicians would play on Sundays. He said it had been so beautiful, full of flowers when he was small, but that it had become very neglected.

Thanks,

Emilie

> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:24:24 -0600
> From: eduardohseoane@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Brick Walls—Research Digest, Vol 50, Issue 16
>
> So did you look at the border crossing records for each individual that
> immigrated? There is also the possibility that members of the family visited
> the US or went to Mexico when children were born and baptized or for
> marriages or deaths. They did not necesarily need to be your grandfather but
> could have been one of his siblings, parents, uncles, cousins, etc…. So,
> their could be additional border crossings. These records are not the same
> as the naturalization record. Often they will give the place of birth, age,
> traveling companions, place traveling too, people they are going to visit,
> different dates in which they had entered the US. If it were my family, I
> would definitely look for them.
>
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Emilie Garcia
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Ed,
> >
> >
> >
> > No, Gorgonia died in Mexico at the turn of the 20th century when my father
> > was a toddler. His father immigrated with him and his sister and his
> > brother and his family in 1913 when my father was 10 years old, and they
> > never returned to Mexico except that one time in the early 1960s when my
> > father went to Jerez to try to get his birth certificate he needed to get
> > his retirement from Westinghouse. There were no records, so my father paid a
> > lawyer and a judge in Jerez to give him one. My father became a naturalized
> > US citizen in 1941, and I sent for those records but they only state that
> > his parents were born in Mexico, no city, etc.
> >
> >
> > Emilie
> >
> > Port Orchard, WA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:23:45 -0800
> > > From: eduardohseoane@gmail.com
> > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Brick Walls—Research Digest, Vol 50,
> > Issue 16
> > >
> > > If they ever came to the United States there should be border crossing
> > > information on them that might indicate place of birth parents etc….
> > > Additionally in the US censuses it usually indicates in what year they
> > > immigrated to the USA. If you can find that information it should help
> > you
> > > to locate your ancestors. In the boarder crossings pay close attention to
> > > who your ancestors are going to visit or traveling with them. Back then
> > very
> > > few people crossed illegally. You can access border crossing records and
> > > census records at Ancestry.com. If your ancestors were in Mexico in 1930
> > > that census is available online at http://pilot.familysearch.org but you
> > > have to know the municipality and city and state where they resided. it
> > will
> > > give the age how long they have been married children and ages of the
> > > children. Good luck!
> > >
> > > Saludos desde Lago Salado
> > > Eduardo H Seoane
> > > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >

Ed,

I have been a subscriber of Ancestry.com for years.

My father Guadalupe Olague had only one sibling, Soledad Olague who crossed over in 1917 with her paternal grandmother Rafaela Tinajero “to join her father”. My grandfather came over first and found a job on the railroad in the Texas panhandle. From there he went to Morgan County, CO where they raised beets. His father’s brother was Ygnacio Olague and he came over with Francisco around 1913, and he brought his wife Guadalupe and his children also.

In the census records for 1920 and 1930 they all lived in the same place and were the only Hispanics in that town, Snyder, CO, Morgan County. I was born there in 1939. During WWII we all moved to California, where my father and his cousins found jobs as welders at the Alameda shipyards working on Liberty Ships. My father’s last job was as a welder at the Westinghouse plant in Sunnyvale, CA.

Thanks,

Emilie

> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:13:51 -0600
> From: eduardohseoane@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Brick Walls—Research Digest, Vol 50, Issue 16
>
> If you provide more information, like the name of the siblings, (uncles and
> aunts of your father) of your grandfather then maybe someone in the group
> could look for those border crossings on Ancestry.com