How can I get a copy if this book
Cortes
—–Original Message—–
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Marge Vallazza
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:16 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] de padres no conocidos
Luz Montejano Hilton’s Sagrada Mitra has at least one example of a
dispensation case in which someone came clean about being the parent
of a young person who was engaged to a previously unknown very close
blood relative. I don’t think the dispensation was granted. For
those of you that own it, have a read through, it’s fascinating
reading and better than any soap opera! Marge:)
On Jun 18, 2009, at 8:07 AM, Stuart Armstrong wrote:
In transcribing these records I have run across every combination of
godparents of hijos de padres no conocidos – some with a padrino only,
some with a madrina only, some with both, and some with one parent
(either father or mother) and one or both godparents, and nearly every
mixture of races. In a few, the child is described as “expuesto”,
usually en la casa de someone of race other than indio. There were
also some niños born of transients (paraxeros / parajeros).
The Antonia in question also has the interesting possibility of being
the same person who later married her godparents’ son. That Antonia is
found having at least six different surnames in various records,
causing one to wonder if she had any idea who her real parents were,
and perhaps identified with various families who took care of her or
were close friends.
The nature of the records is such that in the case of marriage records
I wonder if “hijo/a legitimo/a” is really truthful in every case. If a
person was raised in a family I doubt they would be willing to admit,
if they even knew, that they were not legitimate.
Could someone translate Rodolfo’s reply? (ff)
>
Estimado Stuart buenos días.
Cualquiera de las preguntas que haces puede ser la respuesta.
La obligación para con los padrinos era más que nada espiritual,
dependiendo de sus posibilidades ellos podían llevar o no a los niños
a sus casas. Los niños podían quedar bajo la custodia de Iglesia
mientras se les buscaba un hogar pero el bautismo era algo que no
podía ni debía postergarse ya que la muerte asechaba todo el tiempo.
Por eso se les buscaba padrinos con urgencia para poder bautizarlos.
Casi siempre esos infantes toman los apellidos de los padrinos, puedes
buscar que pasó con esa niña, pudo haber muerto ya que el íncice de
mortalidad era muy alto o puedes buscar en los expedientes
matrimoniales si es que se casó, es en esos documentos en donde se
encuentra la mayor información útil para cualquier investigador o
genealogísta ya que las partidas de libros de bautismo, matrimonio y
entierros son muy breves.
El índice de niños hijos de padres no conocidos e Hijos de la Iglesia
es muy alto durante el virreinato la historia de Antonia la niña que
mencionas, fue bastante común. Eran hijos nacidos de relaciones
ilísitas desde el punto de vista legal o moral, de abusos, etc. Por
ello eran abandonados en los pueblos cercanos, para ocultar “el
pecado”.
Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
>
—
Best regards,
Stuart mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com
Rodolfo,
Thank you so much for clarifying my question. I had never heard of that term
and it is very useful to know that there is yet another place to look for
information when I have exhausted those available through the Mormon church.
Gracias por clarificar mi pregunta sobre expedientes matrimoniales. Es bueno
saber que existen estos libros y que hay otro lugar para buscar datos cuando
los libros de partidos no tienen lo que busco.
-Angelina-
There is another case in Luz montejano hiltons book that has clearly contradicting information. I am still looking through other resources to straighten that out. The contradictions are in the same book which is different than 2 genealogist having different opinions. I hope to have it clarified when the library in westwood reopens in 5-9 months
Rick
________________________________
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org on behalf of Marge Vallazza
Sent: Thu 6/18/2009 12:15 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] de padres no conocidos
Luz Montejano Hilton’s Sagrada Mitra has at least one example of a
dispensation case in which someone came clean about being the parent
of a young person who was engaged to a previously unknown very close
blood relative. I don’t think the dispensation was granted. For
those of you that own it, have a read through, it’s fascinating
reading and better than any soap opera! Marge:)
On Jun 18, 2009, at 8:07 AM, Stuart Armstrong wrote:
In transcribing these records I have run across every combination of
godparents of hijos de padres no conocidos – some with a padrino only,
some with a madrina only, some with both, and some with one parent
(either father or mother) and one or both godparents, and nearly every
mixture of races. In a few, the child is described as “expuesto”,
usually en la casa de someone of race other than indio. There were
also some niños born of transients (paraxeros / parajeros).
The Antonia in question also has the interesting possibility of being
the same person who later married her godparents’ son. That Antonia is
found having at least six different surnames in various records,
causing one to wonder if she had any idea who her real parents were,
and perhaps identified with various families who took care of her or
were close friends.
The nature of the records is such that in the case of marriage records
I wonder if “hijo/a legitimo/a” is really truthful in every case. If a
person was raised in a family I doubt they would be willing to admit,
if they even knew, that they were not legitimate.
Could someone translate Rodolfo’s reply? (ff)
>
Estimado Stuart buenos días.
Cualquiera de las preguntas que haces puede ser la respuesta.
La obligación para con los padrinos era más que nada espiritual,
dependiendo de sus posibilidades ellos podían llevar o no a los niños
a sus casas. Los niños podían quedar bajo la custodia de Iglesia
mientras se les buscaba un hogar pero el bautismo era algo que no
podía ni debía postergarse ya que la muerte asechaba todo el tiempo.
Por eso se les buscaba padrinos con urgencia para poder bautizarlos.
Casi siempre esos infantes toman los apellidos de los padrinos, puedes
buscar que pasó con esa niña, pudo haber muerto ya que el íncice de
mortalidad era muy alto o puedes buscar en los expedientes
matrimoniales si es que se casó, es en esos documentos en donde se
encuentra la mayor información útil para cualquier investigador o
genealogísta ya que las partidas de libros de bautismo, matrimonio y
entierros son muy breves.
El índice de niños hijos de padres no conocidos e Hijos de la Iglesia
es muy alto durante el virreinato la historia de Antonia la niña que
mencionas, fue bastante común. Eran hijos nacidos de relaciones
ilísitas desde el punto de vista legal o moral, de abusos, etc. Por
ello eran abandonados en los pueblos cercanos, para ocultar “el
pecado”.
Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
>
—
Best regards,
Stuart mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com
Rodolfo,
These “expedientes matrimoniales”” Are they the same as “dispensations”? Or “pre-nuptial investigations”?
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
To: presentación Nuestros Ranchos
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] de padres no conocidos
Expedientes matrimoniales are a set of declarations done by the parents of the boyfriends, for the witnesses and for the boyfriends.
The priests are obliged to verify the origin, beliefs, customs, precedents, of the marriage.
Some processes contain up to 24 pages, in them one finds a lot of information exacly that some times is not the same of the item of baptism.
It is a very complete information of the boyfriends and his families, race, parents, grandparents, great-grandfathers, if it exists parentezco between them in which degree for that line, etc.
The expedientes matrimoniales are not microfilmed by the Mormons in the majority of the churches. It is necessary to consult them in the parochial files.
The partidas of baptism, marriage or burials are those that they agree in the books of these categories.
Please, forgive my english
Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
> From: angelina@markleweb.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:10:18 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] de padres no conocidos
>
> Stuart – here is my translation for Rodolfo’s message. He mentions
> “expedientes matrimoniales” and “libros de partidas” I don’t know what the
> difference is. Anyway, I hope this helps. If anyone has a better translation
> I won’t feel offended.
>
> -Angelina-
>
>
> Translation of Rodolfo’s message:
>
> Good morning Stuart.
> All of your questions (scenarios) could be the answer.
>
> The godparents obligations was more than anything spiritual, depending on
> their capacity they would or would not have taken the children to their
> homes. The children may have stayed under the custody of the church while a
> home was found. However, baptism was something that could not be postponed
> as death was a real possibility at all times.
>
> Almost always those infants took the surname of their godparents, you can
> look to see what happened to that girl, she could have died since mortality
> was high or you can look in the “expedientes” marriages to see if she got
> married, it is in those documents where genealogists can find the most
> useful information since the “partidas” books for baptism, marriage, and
> burials are very brief.
>
> The incidence of children born of unknown parents and children of the church
> was very high during the Virreinato. The story of Antonia, the child you
> mention, was very common. They were children born as a result of illicit
> affairs from the legal or moral point of view, abuses, etc. For that reason
> they were abandoned in nearby towns, to hide “the sin”.
>
> -signed-
>
>
>
> Original message from Rodolfo:
>
> Estimado Stuart buenos días.
> Cualquiera de las preguntas que haces puede ser la respuesta.
>
> La obligación para con los padrinos era más que nada espiritual, dependiendo
> de sus posibilidades ellos podían llevar o no a los niños a sus casas. Los
> niños podían quedar bajo la custodia de Iglesia mientras se les buscaba un
> hogar pero el bautismo era algo que no podía ni debía postergarse ya que la
> muerte asechaba todo el tiempo.
> Por eso se les buscaba padrinos con urgencia para poder bautizarlos.
>
> Casi siempre esos infantes toman los apellidos de los padrinos, puedes
> buscar que pasó con esa niña, pudo haber muerto ya que el íncice de
> mortalidad era muy alto o puedes buscar en los expedientes matrimoniales si
> es que se casó, es en esos documentos en donde se encuentra la mayor
> información útil para cualquier investigador o genealogísta ya que las
> partidas de libros de bautismo, matrimonio y entierros son muy breves.
>
> El índice de niños hijos de padres no conocidos e Hijos de la Iglesia es muy
> alto durante el virreinato la historia de Antonia la niña que mencionas, fue
> bastante común. Eran hijos nacidos de relaciones ilísitas desde el punto de
> vista legal o moral, de abusos, etc. Por ello eran abandonados en los
> pueblos cercanos, para ocultar “el pecado”.
>
> Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
>
Expedientes matrimoniales are a pre-nuptial investigation.
Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
> From: auntyemfaustus@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:16:41 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] de padres no conocidos
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> These “expedientes matrimoniales”” Are they the same as “dispensations”? Or “pre-nuptial investigations”?
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
> To: presentación Nuestros Ranchos
> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] de padres no conocidos
>
>
>
>
> Expedientes matrimoniales are a set of declarations done by the parents of the boyfriends, for the witnesses and for the boyfriends.
>
>
> The priests are obliged to verify the origin, beliefs, customs, precedents, of the marriage.
>
>
>
> Some processes contain up to 24 pages, in them one finds a lot of information exacly that some times is not the same of the item of baptism.
>
> It is a very complete information of the boyfriends and his families, race, parents, grandparents, great-grandfathers, if it exists parentezco between them in which degree for that line, etc.
>
>
>
> The expedientes matrimoniales are not microfilmed by the Mormons in the majority of the churches. It is necessary to consult them in the parochial files.
>
> The partidas of baptism, marriage or burials are those that they agree in the books of these categories.
>
> Please, forgive my english
>
> Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: angelina@markleweb.com
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:10:18 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] de padres no conocidos
> >
> > Stuart – here is my translation for Rodolfo’s message. He mentions
> > “expedientes matrimoniales” and “libros de partidas” I don’t know what the
> > difference is. Anyway, I hope this helps. If anyone has a better translation
> > I won’t feel offended.
> >
> > -Angelina-
> >
> >
> > Translation of Rodolfo’s message:
> >
> > Good morning Stuart.
> > All of your questions (scenarios) could be the answer.
> >
> > The godparents obligations was more than anything spiritual, depending on
> > their capacity they would or would not have taken the children to their
> > homes. The children may have stayed under the custody of the church while a
> > home was found. However, baptism was something that could not be postponed
> > as death was a real possibility at all times.
> >
> > Almost always those infants took the surname of their godparents, you can
> > look to see what happened to that girl, she could have died since mortality
> > was high or you can look in the “expedientes” marriages to see if she got
> > married, it is in those documents where genealogists can find the most
> > useful information since the “partidas” books for baptism, marriage, and
> > burials are very brief.
> >
> > The incidence of children born of unknown parents and children of the church
> > was very high during the Virreinato. The story of Antonia, the child you
> > mention, was very common. They were children born as a result of illicit
> > affairs from the legal or moral point of view, abuses, etc. For that reason
> > they were abandoned in nearby towns, to hide “the sin”.
> >
> > -signed-
> >
> >
> >
> > Original message from Rodolfo:
> >
> > Estimado Stuart buenos días.
> > Cualquiera de las preguntas que haces puede ser la respuesta.
> >
> > La obligación para con los padrinos era más que nada espiritual, dependiendo
> > de sus posibilidades ellos podían llevar o no a los niños a sus casas. Los
> > niños podían quedar bajo la custodia de Iglesia mientras se les buscaba un
> > hogar pero el bautismo era algo que no podía ni debía postergarse ya que la
> > muerte asechaba todo el tiempo.
> > Por eso se les buscaba padrinos con urgencia para poder bautizarlos.
> >
> > Casi siempre esos infantes toman los apellidos de los padrinos, puedes
> > buscar que pasó con esa niña, pudo haber muerto ya que el íncice de
> > mortalidad era muy alto o puedes buscar en los expedientes matrimoniales si
> > es que se casó, es en esos documentos en donde se encuentra la mayor
> > información útil para cualquier investigador o genealogísta ya que las
> > partidas de libros de bautismo, matrimonio y entierros son muy breves.
> >
> > El índice de niños hijos de padres no conocidos e Hijos de la Iglesia es muy
> > alto durante el virreinato la historia de Antonia la niña que mencionas, fue
> > bastante común. Eran hijos nacidos de relaciones ilísitas desde el punto de
> > vista legal o moral, de abusos, etc. Por ello eran abandonados en los
> > pueblos cercanos, para ocultar “el pecado”.
> >
> > Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
> >
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Si no está en Windows Live, nunca pasó
> http://www.actualizatuperfil.com.mx/
Hello Bill,
Yes, my mistake. I meant Pasaxeros …
> In your message you said that “There were also some niños born of transients
> (paraxeros / parajeros).” I believe you meant “pasaxeros / pasajeros” (with
> an “s”) like in “pasajeros en esta dicha Villa de Aguas Calientes”.
> Bill Figueroa
—
Best regards,
Stuart mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com
LOL the misspelling makes sense, there I thought actual “bird vendors” were
leaving stray children behind.
In a message dated 6/18/2009 7:47:06 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
bill_figueroa@usa.net writes:
Stuart,
In your message you said that “There were also some niños born of
transients
(paraxeros / parajeros).” I believe you meant “pasaxeros / pasajeros”
(with
an “s”) like in “pasajeros en esta dicha Villa de Aguas Calientes”.
Bill Figueroa
