I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades…so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.

Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.

When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes–some may have been descendants of “Converso” Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were “old Christians” and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses to confirmed their Christian standing before leaving Spain. Further evidence of their Christian fervor is noted by the huge sums of money they gave to the clergy to build churches and convents…and let’s not forget that they left large sums to the Church in their wills.

So technically, yes, some of us could be descendants of the early (1492) conversos who embraced and assimilated into their new faith, but practicing “Crypto” Jews in Los Altos is another story.

If it’s the latter, a fair and logical question would be: If there were cryptos in Los Altos, practicing Judaism in secret, wouldn’t there be a sizable population of Jews in this area now? From what my Jewish friends tell me–Jews never forsake their faith; it remains strong generation after generation (it is inculcated in their children)…so why did the Alteno Jews forsake their faith versus practicing it openly after Mexico was secularized?

I am not discrediting anybody’s research if there are solid facts regarding Crypto Jews in Los Altos. All of us here, newbies and seasoned, would welcome anything that supports this theory. So if anyone has evidence to share, please post it here!

Oigan, creo que son alteños y para nada -altenos.-
¿No creen?
Saludos

Juan Ramón Alvarez

________________________________
From: “actapatio2007@yahoo.com”
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 6:12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los

Que bueno primo…muchos saludos! Como la vez, la gente que no saben quien son los Casillas no conocen los origen de los Altenos!

Claudia, That is a great question ! I came to this whole discussion late in the game, I tried to stay out as long as I could but felt I needed some people to clarify…or at least justify what they were posting. My understanding is that it was proof of Jewish ancestry via DNA testing, but I could be wrong. People did mention building style as well as clothing, but I can’t see proof of anything from those two statements. Great insight in regards to Conversos and Cryto Jews. I’m sure there are more than a few people related to Conversos and as I posted earlier, outside of a very specific Y DNA marker, you can’t tell what a person’s faith is by a DNA test. Plenty of European Jews have R1a,J and G haplotypes along with a variation of R1b. Thanks for bringing this up as well as the historical details you presented. Bravo.

Robert~

Bravo Juan !

When I said that some of the founding families of los altos had ancestors that were jewish I was not stating that they continued practicing judaism though I know that one family did and there was a big trial and the record of the trial still exists today.
This notion of looking at one genetic marker does not make sense to me. One of the emails someone sent states that the evidence is not existent. Let me assure everyone that the evidence does exist. Remember that we have 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and the number doubles every generation. By the time you go back over 1000 years you find that we altenos are descendents of moors jews english french italians vikings russians germans africans spanish and many other people. My research includes all my ancestors and digging to find as much as I can about them. The people we descend from did intermarry a tremendous amount over 70 generations but every once in a while married someone outside the family.
Another ancestor of altenos that had jewish blood was catalina salazar her ancestors were conversos who worked for the king as what we would call treasurers or bankers.
As to King ferdinand the catholic being accused of having some jewish and moor blood by the pope I state that he was right because I did his genealogy since he and us altenos share many of the same ancestral lines.
I was not surprised to find jewish and moor ancestors knowing the history of spain. What I was surprised to find was the viking russian and german lines but that explains the blue eyes in my dad and many family members.
I was also surprised to find that i was primarily white with very little indian blood
What some altenos fail to recognize was That there were some free mulattos in the 1600’s and 1700’s that married into the White families of jalos and the descendents, who show no sign of african blood spread through jalos tepa valle pegueros and other Alteno towns.
My father’s mulatto ancestor was from teocaltiche jalisco And he was born in the late 1600’s or early 1700’s. His marriage record does noT state when he was born. I have never mentioned this ancestor to many of my family on his side knowing how many of them are very proud of being so white and would reject any mention of an ancestry that included an ancestor that did not meet their dreams.
Going back to the markers, we descend from over 32000 people just going 15 generations back. Actually with all the intermarriage it isn’t really isn’t that many, but we do have some family members marrying from outside the main founder families otherwise we altenos would have the exacly same genealogies and we don’t. I found that my father in law mother in law my father and my mother all have many common ancestors yet they all have some unique ancestral branches. My parents and in laws are altenos. My Wife and I are 5th cousins, my family from valle de gpe tepa and jAlos and her family from san miguel el Alto and jalos We are actually 6th cousins from the same martin del campo ancestor 7 times over.
I have done many of the genealogies of people in west la santa monica area who descend from valle de gpe jalos pegueros arandas tepa and I find many common ancestors with their own unique ancestral branches where they married outsidE the core families. What These branches that are outside the core family groups contribute to the gene pool is actually healthy. In the valle and pegueros there are a couple of families that resisted marrying outside oF the main founders and they have a history of genetic health issues.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

—–Original Message—–
From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:06
To:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos – Are we confusing Crypto with
Converso?

I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades…so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.

Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.

When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes–some may have been descendants of “Converso” Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were “old Christians” and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses to confirmed their Christian standing before leaving Spain. Further evidence of their Christian fervor is noted by the huge sums of money they gave to the clergy to build churches and convents…and let’s not forget that they left large sums to the Church in their wills.

So technically, yes, some of us could be descendants of the early (1492) conversos who embraced and assimilated into their new faith, but practicing “Crypto” Jews in Los Altos is another story.

If it’s the latter, a fair and logical question would be: If there were cryptos in Los Altos, practicing Judaism in secret, wouldn’t there be a sizable population of Jews in this area now? From what my Jewish friends tell me–Jews never forsake their faith; it remains strong generation after generation (it is inculcated in their children)…so why did the Alteno Jews forsake their faith versus practicing it openly after Mexico was secularized?

I am not discrediting anybody’s research if there are solid facts regarding Crypto Jews in Los Altos. All of us here, newbies and seasoned, would welcome anything that supports this theory. So if anyone has evidence to share, please post it here!

When did I say we are not mestizos? Again, I don’t think you have read my
posts or are confusing me with someone else.

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 11:09 PM, wrote:

> Bravo Juan !
>

When I first started doing genealogy I bElieveD that true genealogist worked hard at the craft and would only publish after diligent research. I believed that they would tell the whole truth as to what their research uncovered. I was saddened by the realization that many of published genealogies contain half truths that came not from research but conjecture or a. Deliberate attempt to conceAl some data, usually to protect some family members. Protect as in to not hurt. One of the reasons I have noT rushed to publish any of my work because it would contradict the work of some well known genealogists, including cousins and my famous and wonderful uncle who was very detailed in his research but did not want to upset his wife or other family members. Genealogists have quoted my uncles work which is very impressive yet contains a few inaccuracies that protected people. He was a kind man and a wonderful doctor. He was a wonderful husband and father. Yet his genealogy hides fac
ts about his own sisters birth. His records on a nephews inlaws are not accurate or complete. When this nephew also became a genealogist he published without correcting this data. His records on a second cousin who practiced incest with hiS first born daughteR and had children with her are miSsing important details such as most of his children were born after his first wife was dead and through incest.
I believe that even the work of honest and hard working researchers should be looked at very carefully because even they may have Something to hide.
I myself have hidden from myself. I have not researched my half siblings. I do not know the details of my 20 odd half siblings that share the same father but come from different mothers. Or the illegitmate children any of my first uncles or cousins. I have dedicated my research mainly to the past 75 and not present generations. This is in itself an act of concealment since I do have info and leads that will be lost to any future genealogist that wAnts the complete record.
Many times in our families past the lines that lead to jews or moors were concealed and it is only through diligent research, and sometimes good luck, have they come to light.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

—–Original Message—–
From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:53:10
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos – Are we confusing Crypto
withConverso?

When I said that some of the founding families of los altos had ancestors that were jewish I was not stating that they continued practicing judaism though I know that one family did and there was a big trial and the record of the trial still exists today.
This notion of looking at one genetic marker does not make sense to me. One of the emails someone sent states that the evidence is not existent. Let me assure everyone that the evidence does exist. Remember that we have 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and the number doubles every generation. By the time you go back over 1000 years you find that we altenos are descendents of moors jews english french italians vikings russians germans africans spanish and many other people. My research includes all my ancestors and digging to find as much as I can about them. The people we descend from did intermarry a tremendous amount over 70 generations but every once in a while married someone outside the family.
Another ancestor of altenos that had jewish blood was catalina salazar her ancestors were conversos who worked for the king as what we would call treasurers or bankers.
As to King ferdinand the catholic being accused of having some jewish and moor blood by the pope I state that he was right because I did his genealogy since he and us altenos share many of the same ancestral lines.
I was not surprised to find jewish and moor ancestors knowing the history of spain. What I was surprised to find was the viking russian and german lines but that explains the blue eyes in my dad and many family members.
I was also surprised to find that i was primarily white with very little indian blood
What some altenos fail to recognize was That there were some free mulattos in the 1600’s and 1700’s that married into the White families of jalos and the descendents, who show no sign of african blood spread through jalos tepa valle pegueros and other Alteno towns.
My father’s mulatto ancestor was from teocaltiche jalisco And he was born in the late 1600’s or early 1700’s. His marriage record does noT state when he was born. I have never mentioned this ancestor to many of my family on his side knowing how many of them are very proud of being so white and would reject any mention of an ancestry that included an ancestor that did not meet their dreams.
Going back to the markers, we descend from over 32000 people just going 15 generations back. Actually with all the intermarriage it isn’t really isn’t that many, but we do have some family members marrying from outside the main founder families otherwise we altenos would have the exacly same genealogies and we don’t. I found that my father in law mother in law my father and my mother all have many common ancestors yet they all have some unique ancestral branches. My parents and in laws are altenos. My Wife and I are 5th cousins, my family from valle de gpe tepa and jAlos and her family from san miguel el Alto and jalos We are actually 6th cousins from the same martin del campo ancestor 7 times over.
I have done many of the genealogies of people in west la santa monica area who descend from valle de gpe jalos pegueros arandas tepa and I find many common ancestors with their own unique ancestral branches where they married outsidE the core families. What These branches that are outside the core family groups contribute to the gene pool is actually healthy. In the valle and pegueros there are a couple of families that resisted marrying outside oF the main founders and they have a history of genetic health issues.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

—–Original Message—–
From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:06
To:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos – Are we confusing Crypto with
Converso?

I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades…so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.

Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.

When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes–some may have been descendants of “Converso” Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were “old Christians” and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses to confirmed their Christian standing before leaving Spain. Further evidence of their Christian fervor is noted by the huge sums of money they gave to the clergy to build churches and convents…and let’s not forget that they left large sums to the Church in their wills.

So technically, yes, some of us could be descendants of the early (1492) conversos who embraced and assimilated into their new faith, but practicing “Crypto” Jews in Los Altos is another story.

If it’s the latter, a fair and logical question would be: If there were cryptos in Los Altos, practicing Judaism in secret, wouldn’t there be a sizable population of Jews in this area now? From what my Jewish friends tell me–Jews never forsake their faith; it remains strong generation after generation (it is inculcated in their children)…so why did the Alteno Jews forsake their faith versus practicing it openly after Mexico was secularized?

I am not discrediting anybody’s research if there are solid facts regarding Crypto Jews in Los Altos. All of us here, newbies and seasoned, would welcome anything that supports this theory. So if anyone has evidence to share, please post it here!

thank you for your honesty.  Like you I have left some of the records for living relatives alone since they would affect them today.  Their parents are no longer living but that doesn’t give me the right to force the truth of who their father really was down their throats.  I wrestled with this before deciding to just leave it alone.  I think they know the truth but who am I to say?  I have the paper work and maybe one day down the road someone else will put the truth after they have joined the ancestors.  I had to make a choice on what I hoped to accomplish with my records and hurting the living was not my choice.

Linda in Marietta

________________________________
From: “mygenes2000@yahoo.com”
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 1:34:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos – Are we confusing CryptowithConverso?

When I first started doing genealogy I bElieveD that true genealogist worked hard at the craft and would only publish after diligent research.  I believed that they would tell the whole truth as to what their research uncovered.  I was saddened by the realization that many of published genealogies contain half truths that came not from research but conjecture or a. Deliberate attempt to conceAl some data, usually to protect some family members. Protect as in to not hurt.  One of the reasons I have noT rushed to publish any of my work because it would contradict the work of some well known genealogists, including cousins and my famous and wonderful uncle who was very detailed in his research but did not want to upset his wife or other family members. Genealogists have quoted my uncles work which is very impressive yet contains a few inaccuracies that protected people.  He was a kind man and a wonderful doctor. He was a wonderful husband and father.
Yet his genealogy hides fac
ts about his own sisters birth. His records on a nephews inlaws are not accurate or complete. When this nephew also became a genealogist he published without correcting  this data.  His records on a second cousin who practiced incest with hiS first born daughteR and had children with her are miSsing important details such as most of his children were born after his first wife was dead and through incest. 
I believe that even the work of honest and hard working researchers should be looked at very carefully because even they may have Something to hide.
I myself have hidden from myself.  I have not  researched my half siblings.  I do not know the details of my 20 odd half siblings that share the same father but come from different mothers.  Or the illegitmate children any of my first uncles or cousins.  I have dedicated my research mainly to the past 75 and not present generations. This is in itself an act of concealment since I do have info and leads that will be lost to any future genealogist that wAnts the complete record.
Many times in our families past the lines that lead to jews or moors were concealed and it is only through diligent research, and sometimes good luck,  have they come to light.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Let me just start by saying if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.

In my opinion we are all culturally and physically diverse…as is any group or country. When we particiapte in ideas of “purity of blood” or group superiority we are following down the path of some of the most despicable people in history.

Be proud of your ancestors, but not at the expense of others. Don’t look at a group of people the way that you would like to see them. We all have ideas of who and what we are, and some don’t like that to be challenged, that’s fine, but respect everyones beliefs if you want yours to be respected in turn.

As in the case of Spain, it’s downfall was that it began to believe mythology as fact, it expelled groups of people it deemed unworthy to call themselves Spaniards when they themselves had more than a little of that “tainted” blood. In the end all that was left was a group of lazy, corrupt hidalgos whose parchments weren’t worth a loaf of bread.

I love Spain and am very proud of my Spanish roots, I’ve traveled from Asturias to Extremadura and the people that I grew to love and respect were the simple Spanish peasant. You’d be hard pressed to find a more kind,generous and noble person in the world…those are the people I hope to count as my ancestors. That is what I choose to see in us, their decendants.

Actapatio—Look for my response to your post here on the General list. If you insist on continuing this debate please do not use this Research list since those who signed up for only the Research list do not appreciate seeing debates of this kind.

Emilie

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:42:18 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los
>
> Hello Emile
>
> As of now there is an amplitude of genetic studies pro and con trying to clamp down on a “Jewish” signature in a person’s dna. At first it was believed that the CMH or Cohen Modal Haplogroup repeating code was a signature that must, and I mean must, mean Jewish ancestory.
>
> Unfortunately for those believing that the CMH was the end all say all in proving descendancy from the Priest Aaron, brother of Moses was spread throughout several
> y paternal Haplogroups. Which would have made it out of the range in Torah or Old Testament Timelines.
>
> At this point, the current idea is that haplogroup J1e, which according to one mutation rate is the y haplo marker for descendacy of the man from the Hyskos group named Aaron. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
>
> But there is another camp, which believes that this marker appeared around Roman times, which could be a priestly survivor of the Jewish Diaspora. Anyone having this marker has a higher chance of being original Hebrew/Hyskos. Therefore jews having other markers are converts to that religion.
>
> I’d like to know what marker is specifically Jewish non Cohen? Or is it a matter of just believes and religions?
>
> Polemic topic to follow:
> Recall, that the students of Paul who were Greco-Romans found Judiasm appealing except for one minor detail. You can find this in the letters of Paul against James and Peter. That detail was circumcision. To the Greco-Romans-Egyptians saw this as a sign of slavery. To men who practice Judiasm this a sign of a contract with their God. In the southwest there are people who’s fathers and fathers fathers practiced this secretly. So another potential marker besides a haplogroup of middle eastern origin could be this practice. I guess asking your grandfather if this was practiced could be an indicator as well.

Hi Linda,

I don’t write much on this website because I can’t read Spanish or understand the beautiful language. I married into a good
family but never learn the language. But do read some of the posting on this website and there are very interesting. I have
research of many things that what I do. My favorite is my husband ancestry & mine. Today I was reading all the postings today
from everyone that I receive found them very interesting. But yours is true in many families not just Spanish families I find
in my ancestor the same thing. The genealogy is history of our ancestry and what made all us even the bad and good of
our ancestor. I family both side I give them the access to the family tree they don’t want to be bother or not interested but
some day they will be. And my work will be there for all too see like yours so we need too keep truth too our heritage through
the generations that have come and gone for future generations. Today world all of our work on ancestor will be the only thing
that will keep the world believing in each other and respect them. I hope ya’ll understand what am saying. All us are pioneers
of the past,present and future. Thanks to all you for history of the world ancestry that makes all who we our.

THANKS,
Paula Miller-Cuellar

—– Original Message —-
> From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 1:23:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos – Are we confusing CryptowithConverso?
>
> thank you for your honesty. Like you I have left some of the records for living
> relatives alone since they would affect them today. Their parents are no longer
> living but that doesn’t give me the right to force the truth of who their father
> really was down their throats. I wrestled with this before deciding to just
> leave it alone. I think they know the truth but who am I to say? I have the
> paper work and maybe one day down the road someone else will put the truth after
> they have joined the ancestors. I had to make a choice on what I hoped to
> accomplish with my records and hurting the living was not my choice.
>
> Linda in Marietta
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: “mygenes2000@yahoo.com”
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 1:34:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos – Are we confusing
> CryptowithConverso?
>
> When I first started doing genealogy I bElieveD that true genealogist worked
> hard at the craft and would only publish after diligent research. I believed
> that they would tell the whole truth as to what their research uncovered. I was
> saddened by the realization that many of published genealogies contain half
> truths that came not from research but conjecture or a. Deliberate attempt to
> conceAl some data, usually to protect some family members. Protect as in to not
> hurt. One of the reasons I have noT rushed to publish any of my work because it
> would contradict the work of some well known genealogists, including cousins and
> my famous and wonderful uncle who was very detailed in his research but did not
> want to upset his wife or other family members. Genealogists have quoted my
> uncles work which is very impressive yet contains a few inaccuracies that
> protected people. He was a kind man and a wonderful doctor. He was a wonderful
> husband and father.
> Yet his genealogy hides fac
> ts about his own sisters birth. His records on a nephews inlaws are not accurate
> or complete. When this nephew also became a genealogist he published without
> correcting this data. His records on a second cousin who practiced incest with
> hiS first born daughteR and had children with her are miSsing important details
> such as most of his children were born after his first wife was dead and through
> incest.
> I believe that even the work of honest and hard working researchers should be
> looked at very carefully because even they may have Something to hide.
> I myself have hidden from myself. I have not researched my half siblings. I
> do not know the details of my 20 odd half siblings that share the same father
> but come from different mothers. Or the illegitmate children any of my first
> uncles or cousins. I have dedicated my research mainly to the past 75 and not
> present generations. This is in itself an act of concealment since I do have
> info and leads that will be lost to any future genealogist that wAnts the
> complete record.
> Many times in our families past the lines that lead to jews or moors were
> concealed and it is only through diligent research, and sometimes good luck,
> have they come to light.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>
>
>

Look for my response to this post on the General list. This Research list is strictly for those discussing the genealogical info on their ancestors. The General list is for other types of discussions.

Emilie

> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:46:49 -0600
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I don’t see where he made a statement of Spaniards being “pure”. You do seem
> to want Spaniards to have even more Jewish and Moorish ancestry than what
> could be the case. Spain is 67% European origin, mainly R1b. No one is
> certain what the actual ethnic origins of of the non-R1b people are, they
> only know where most of the people are today that share that DNA and
> specific markers. Therefore as stated before, it could be what some people
> call Y-DNA of Moors and Jews could actually be of other ethnic groups.
>
> Why the comments about what the Pope said and whether or not the EU wanted
> to accept Spain? I don’t see how they matter. Calling us mongrels is pretty
> low.
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Emilie Garcia
> wrote:
>
> >
> > “Genetic evidence” and evidence you “have read” is like comparing apples
> > and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various
> > reasons especially to gain money and position.
> >
> >
> >
> > My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de
> > Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in
> > Mexico or going back to Spain.
> >
> >
> >
> > He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture
> > of cultures in Spain over the centuries: “Christian families with more
> > pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them
> > [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper
> > classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the
> > Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope
> > Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish ‘worthless seed
> > of the Jews and Moors'”.
> >
> >
> >
> > I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese
> > as not being Europeans. Wasn’t there a dust-up about allowing them into the
> > EU?
> >
> >
> >
> > So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are
> > now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or
> > the New World were “pure” anything.
> >
> >
> >
> > Emilie
> >
> > Port Orchard, WA
> >
> > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
> > >
> > > I’d like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment
> > above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were
> > mostly part of the “orden de santiago” a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore
> > enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew
> > about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly
> > Celtic origins.
> > >
> > > Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous
> > and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to
> > conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He
> > was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So,
> > there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country.
> > Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they
> > too were Catholic.
> > >
> > > Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman
> > Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a
> > great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups
> > r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
> > >
> > > Scientific Study
> > >
> > http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ancestry.html
> > >
> > > Second independant Study
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2
> > >
> > .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
> > > A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
> > >
> > > The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory
> > is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
> > >
> > > Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to
> > Nordvert’s Haplogroup Predictor:
> > > R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1
> > =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2%
> > R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
> > >
> > > There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however
> > this is not the family that we are talking about.
> > >
> > > I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to
> > log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are
> > descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the
> > power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged
> > to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and
> > the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to
> > the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their
> > administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family
> > that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his
> > new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
> > >
> > > Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic
> > descendants…
> > > http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
> > > ysearch user:FWRJ5
> > >
> > > In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them
> > being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
> > >
> > > Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then
> > they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and
> > involved of the Orden of Santiago.
> > >
> > > It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my
> > family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage
> > certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
> > >
> > > There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
> > mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn’t studies to the
> > cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
> > > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >

Thank you, Emilie!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

—–Original Message—–
From: Emilie Garcia
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:12:54
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos

Look for my response to this post on the General list. This Research list is strictly for those discussing the genealogical info on their ancestors. The General list is for other types of discussions.

Emilie

> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:46:49 -0600
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
>
> I don’t see where he made a statement of Spaniards being “pure”. You do seem
> to want Spaniards to have even more Jewish and Moorish ancestry than what
> could be the case. Spain is 67% European origin, mainly R1b. No one is
> certain what the actual ethnic origins of of the non-R1b people are, they
> only know where most of the people are today that share that DNA and
> specific markers. Therefore as stated before, it could be what some people
> call Y-DNA of Moors and Jews could actually be of other ethnic groups.
>
> Why the comments about what the Pope said and whether or not the EU wanted
> to accept Spain? I don’t see how they matter. Calling us mongrels is pretty
> low.
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Emilie Garcia
> wrote:
>
> >
> > “Genetic evidence” and evidence you “have read” is like comparing apples
> > and oranges. People used to adopt surnames as was convenient for various
> > reasons especially to gain money and position.
> >
> >
> >
> > My husband, who is descended from Altenos (the Albas, Cervantes, Ruis de
> > Esparza, Rubalcabas, etc.) has no illusions about his ancestry either in
> > Mexico or going back to Spain.
> >
> >
> >
> > He just showed me this paragraph from one of his books about the admixture
> > of cultures in Spain over the centuries: “Christian families with more
> > pedigree than cash, or with a prudent respect for ability accepted them
> > [Jews] in marriage. ..In this way the Spanish people, especially the upper
> > classes, received a substantial infusion of Jewish blood. Ferdinand the
> > Catholic and Torquemada the Inquisitor had Jews in their ancestry. Pope
> > Paul IV, at war with Phillip II, called him and the Spanish ‘worthless seed
> > of the Jews and Moors'”.
> >
> >
> >
> > I know that the rest of Europe looked askance at Spaniards and Portuguese
> > as not being Europeans. Wasn’t there a dust-up about allowing them into the
> > EU?
> >
> >
> >
> > So, it seems to me that the Spaniards are as mongrel a race as mestizos are
> > now considered, and they always were. Neither Spaniards in the Old World or
> > the New World were “pure” anything.
> >
> >
> >
> > Emilie
> >
> > Port Orchard, WA
> >
> > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > From: actapatio2007@yahoo.com
> > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:26:30 -0800
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish evidence in Los Altos
> > >
> > > I’d like to see the genetic evidence and any documentation to the comment
> > above. The evidence that I have read is to the contrary. The colonists were
> > mostly part of the “orden de santiago” a hardcore Catholic group, hardcore
> > enough to kill for their religion. Thus consistent with what we already knew
> > about conquistadors and 1st colonists, they were Catholic and of mostly
> > Celtic origins.
> > >
> > > Genetic evidence of these names have been found to be Celtic indigenous
> > and Celtic Frisian. King Carlos V the Hapsburg was instrumental to
> > conquering of Mexico and his people where instrumental to inquisition. He
> > was after all the holy Roman Emperor, king to many kings in Europe. So,
> > there was a very acute conscious effort to make Mexico a Catholic country.
> > Those that came from Spain, again very conscious effort to make sure they
> > too were Catholic.
> > >
> > > Second, we need to remember that the majority of our roots are Roman
> > Catholic. If you look at the dna sequences from mediterranean there is a
> > great chance of being part of the Roman empire. Everything from dna groups
> > r1b, j1, j2, k and so forth.
> > >
> > > Scientific Study
> > >
> > http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/02/no-significant-crypto-jewish-ancestry.html
> > >
> > > Second independant Study
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161845?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2
> > >
> > .PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_R
> > > A&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
> > >
> > > The Only Mendoza family on www.ysearch.org that claims Mexican ancestory
> > is actually haplogroup R1b again Celtic/Germanic. The user code is ERC6H.
> > >
> > > Mendoza Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows according to
> > Nordvert’s Haplogroup Predictor:
> > > R1b-North/South 2 =>31% R1b-Leinster =>31% R1b =>7% R1b-North/South 1
> > =>7% R1b-S26 =>7% R1b-S28 =>7% R1b-N.Irish =>2% R1b-M222 (NW Irish) =>2%
> > R1b-Frisian =>1% R1b-Ub =>1%
> > >
> > > There was a 1 Mendoza family in Chile that is Middle Eastern, however
> > this is not the family that we are talking about.
> > >
> > > I often hear people making jewish ancestory claims, I feel compelled to
> > log on an comment on this fantasy. Why? Because my family, the Casillas are
> > descendant of Frisians Celtic-p invaders. From the same region that was the
> > power center of Hapsburgs or Carlos V. At that time the Netherlands belonged
> > to Spain and was the Catholic Power Center. The Viceroy Mendoza family and
> > the Casillas (there are 4 so far all Celtic) family were related via back to
> > the Hapsburg. Again no jewish ties there. The Hapsburgs sent out their
> > administrators to Mexico, it would not make sense again that the same family
> > that expelled the jews from Spain would send Jewish administrators to his
> > new gold mine of a country/ Mexico.
> > >
> > > Here is my ysearch.org entry, with over 500 years of Celtic
> > descendants…
> > > http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=FWRJ5
> > > ysearch user:FWRJ5
> > >
> > > In regards to the Perez family, there are over 30 entries, 10 of them
> > being from Mexico all from mixed ancestory.
> > >
> > > Again, if the family was part of the first colonists in los altos, then
> > they were most likely Catholic, Celtic or Spainish descent and part and
> > involved of the Orden of Santiago.
> > >
> > > It gets a little tiring to hear about these crypto jewish claims about my
> > family, when the dna evidence, historical books, actual birth/marriage
> > certificates and scientific studies support what my family has always known.
> > >
> > > There is a huge business and industry currently for dna sites testing
> > mexicans for jewish ancestory. There should be if there isn’t studies to the
> > cultural psychological fascination for the want to be jewish.
> > > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >

I have a comment to make about this post but I will do it on the General list. This Research list is strictly for genealogical research and not general discussions.

Emilie

> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:53:10 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos – Are we confusing Crypto withConverso?
>
> When I said that some of the founding families of los altos had ancestors that were jewish I was not stating that they continued practicing judaism though I know that one family did and there was a big trial and the record of the trial still exists today.
> This notion of looking at one genetic marker does not make sense to me. One of the emails someone sent states that the evidence is not existent. Let me assure everyone that the evidence does exist. Remember that we have 2 parents 4 grandparents 8 great grandparents and the number doubles every generation. By the time you go back over 1000 years you find that we altenos are descendents of moors jews english french italians vikings russians germans africans spanish and many other people. My research includes all my ancestors and digging to find as much as I can about them. The people we descend from did intermarry a tremendous amount over 70 generations but every once in a while married someone outside the family.
> Another ancestor of altenos that had jewish blood was catalina salazar her ancestors were conversos who worked for the king as what we would call treasurers or bankers.
> As to King ferdinand the catholic being accused of having some jewish and moor blood by the pope I state that he was right because I did his genealogy since he and us altenos share many of the same ancestral lines.
> I was not surprised to find jewish and moor ancestors knowing the history of spain. What I was surprised to find was the viking russian and german lines but that explains the blue eyes in my dad and many family members.
> I was also surprised to find that i was primarily white with very little indian blood
> What some altenos fail to recognize was That there were some free mulattos in the 1600’s and 1700’s that married into the White families of jalos and the descendents, who show no sign of african blood spread through jalos tepa valle pegueros and other Alteno towns.
> My father’s mulatto ancestor was from teocaltiche jalisco And he was born in the late 1600’s or early 1700’s. His marriage record does noT state when he was born. I have never mentioned this ancestor to many of my family on his side knowing how many of them are very proud of being so white and would reject any mention of an ancestry that included an ancestor that did not meet their dreams.
> Going back to the markers, we descend from over 32000 people just going 15 generations back. Actually with all the intermarriage it isn’t really isn’t that many, but we do have some family members marrying from outside the main founder families otherwise we altenos would have the exacly same genealogies and we don’t. I found that my father in law mother in law my father and my mother all have many common ancestors yet they all have some unique ancestral branches. My parents and in laws are altenos. My Wife and I are 5th cousins, my family from valle de gpe tepa and jAlos and her family from san miguel el Alto and jalos We are actually 6th cousins from the same martin del campo ancestor 7 times over.
> I have done many of the genealogies of people in west la santa monica area who descend from valle de gpe jalos pegueros arandas tepa and I find many common ancestors with their own unique ancestral branches where they married outsidE the core families. What These branches that are outside the core family groups contribute to the gene pool is actually healthy. In the valle and pegueros there are a couple of families that resisted marrying outside oF the main founders and they have a history of genetic health issues.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:06
> To:
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Los Altos – Are we confusing Crypto with
> Converso?
>
> I can appreciate that Nuestros Ranchos members are all at different stages of research. Some are newbies, while others have been doing this for decades…so it is with an open mind and a heart full of respect that I write this post.
>
> Is the argument we are having against the idea that we may have old Converso ancestry, or that someone out there is disseminating stories that there were Crypto Jews in Los Altos? I am reading both in the previous posts.
>
> When we think about ALTENO settlers, yes–some may have been descendants of “Converso” Jews who converted to Christianity when the monarchs of Spain gave Jews an option to covert or leave the country. But by the time our ancestors took up the sword to conquer and pillage Nueva Galicia, they were assimilated Catholics (presumably). Besides the fact that some were knights in the various military Orders (recognized as religious by the Pope), they had to prove they were “old Christians” and present genealogical evidence and have witnesses to confirmed their Christian standing before leaving Spain. Further evidence of their Christian fervor is noted by the huge sums of money they gave to the clergy to build churches and convents…and let’s not forget that they left large sums to the Church in their wills.
>
> So technically, yes, some of us could be descendants of the early (1492) conversos who embraced and assimilated into their new faith, but practicing “Crypto” Jews in Los Altos is another story.
>
> If it’s the latter, a fair and logical question would be: If there were cryptos in Los Altos, practicing Judaism in secret, wouldn’t there be a sizable population of Jews in this area now? From what my Jewish friends tell me–Jews never forsake their faith; it remains strong generation after generation (it is inculcated in their children)…so why did the Alteno Jews forsake their faith versus practicing it openly after Mexico was secularized?
>
> I am not discrediting anybody’s research if there are solid facts regarding Crypto Jews in Los Altos. All of us here, newbies and seasoned, would welcome anything that supports this theory. So if anyone has evidence to share, please post it here!

That is exactly how my Alteno husband feels.

Emilie

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:52:24 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish Evidence DNA ” truths”
>
> Let me just start by saying if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.
>
> In my opinion we are all culturally and physically diverse…as is any group or country. When we particiapte in ideas of “purity of blood” or group superiority we are following down the path of some of the most despicable people in history.
>
> Be proud of your ancestors, but not at the expense of others. Don’t look at a group of people the way that you would like to see them. We all have ideas of who and what we are, and some don’t like that to be challenged, that’s fine, but respect everyones beliefs if you want yours to be respected in turn.
>
> As in the case of Spain, it’s downfall was that it began to believe mythology as fact, it expelled groups of people it deemed unworthy to call themselves Spaniards when they themselves had more than a little of that “tainted” blood. In the end all that was left was a group of lazy, corrupt hidalgos whose parchments weren’t worth a loaf of bread.
>
> I love Spain and am very proud of my Spanish roots, I’ve traveled from Asturias to Extremadura and the people that I grew to love and respect were the simple Spanish peasant. You’d be hard pressed to find a more kind,generous and noble person in the world…those are the people I hope to count as my ancestors. That is what I choose to see in us, their decendants.
>
>
>