Maureen,
My thoughts on this are that prejudice certainly existed against full-blood Indians, but unlike here in the US, it was not a law that the races couldn’t mix. The priests certainly didn’t deny a couple marriage just for being of different races, I think only the members of the Espanol family objected.
My grand-father’s brother-in-law’s father was a pure blood Indian in Zacatecas, and when the daughter of a rich ranchero married him, the ranchero disowned the daughter, but he would still come by and check on her, but she would have nothing to do with her father. Her son said that once his Espanol grandfather came up riding on an elegant horse and asked him, “Como esta tu mama?” (How is your mother?) and when he was told she was fine, the man rode away, but her son said he picked up a rock, and threw it at the horse’s hind end. He hated his grandfather as much as his mother did.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: mytmo@netnitco.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:37 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
Dear Luis:
Thank you for the link. So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Maureen Bejar
Linda
My ancestors on my father’s side were from Jerez too, and I find in the records for the same family that the children all are listed as being different races, just like you found, including mulato, lots of those. Most were Espanol, very few Yndio, lots of mestizos. So the church had to have used skin color to denote race.
Did you see that TV program called The Human Family Tree where they typed the DNA of a diverse neighborhood in NY and one black guy was classified caucasian? He protested that he was obviously black (skin color) but he was told that he only had one black ancestor, that everyone else in his ancestry was caucasian.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
I think sometimes we equate “Spanish” with wealthy and during the early days there were many Spanish people who were as poor as the Yndios they worked and lived with. Not everyone was upper “class” plus there were Yndios who had wealth and they were the ones who married Espanolas sometimes. The church still classified these children by their skin color since I have a family with an Espanola mother and Yndio father and the children are listed differently, one Yndio another Espanol and also a Mestizo oh and one was listed Mulato! This was in Jerez, Zacatecas.
Linda in B.C.
— On Sun, 9/27/09, mytmo@netnitco.net <mytmo@netnitco.net> wrote:
From: mytmo@netnitco.net <mytmo@netnitco.net>
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 1:37 PM
Dear Luis:
Thank you for the link. So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Maureen Bejar
No, lots of Yndios were permitted to use Spanish surnames–they just took the name of their Spanish masters, especially if they had been Christianized–they would take the surname of the god-father. Here in the States you used to have blacks named Robert E. Lee, etc. because they took the surnames of their masters.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Latina1955@aol.com
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
Didn’t I read on this site that full-blooded “Indios” did not have last
names – except the Tlaxcaltecas? If Jose Iganacio Albiso was said to be an
“Indio”, and he had a last name, chances are that either he was Tlaxcalteco
– who were considered “civilized” by the Spaniards, hence permitted to have
a last name OR he was not full blooded “Indio”. Just a thought….
In doing the baptism records in Michoacan I found a separate book for Yndio baptisms in the mid to late 1600’s and they didn’t list the band or tribe but that area was mostly Purepecha I think, any way, they did have Yndio surnames listed as I would think they sounded rather than accurate spellings. They also had Mestisos baptising with Yndio surnames. I had not found this in Zacatecas or Jalisco research.
Linda in B.C.
— On Sun, 9/27/09, Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
From: Latina1955@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 3:25 PM
In response to this:
“Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to
link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose
Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and
full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would
have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in
marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing
something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather
than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have
any thoughts on this? ”
Didn’t I read on this site that full-blooded “Indios” did not have last
names – except the Tlaxcaltecas? If Jose Iganacio Albiso was said to be an
“Indio”, and he had a last name, chances are that either he was Tlaxcalteco
– who were considered “civilized” by the Spaniards, hence permitted to have
a last name OR he was not full blooded “Indio”. Just a thought….
Maureen,
I think you have just discovered that life on a hacienda was quite different than many of us have been led to believe. After reading dozens of records online I finally realize how mistaken my concepts were. Reading through Ricardo Lancaster-Jones’ book, Haciendas De Jalisco Y Aledaños (1506-1821) opened my eyes to a new thought. The way of life in many Mexican haciendas prefigured the type of social diversity which we take for granted today. Today people marry out of their “group” regardless of the racist and/or prejudice surrounding them. I wish I had been able to know this earlier in my life. Instead of being surprised that interracial marriages occurred we could react by appreciating the fact that these unions occurred. My reaction is also a sort of disappointment. I wish that this sort of information had been more available to me in years past.
David in Albany, CA
—–Original Message—–
>From: mytmo@netnitco.net
>Sent: Sep 27, 2009 4:37 PM
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
>
>Dear Luis:
> Thank you for the link. So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
>
>Maureen Bejar
Dear Maureen,
I’m sure that an Espanola woman’s (and her family’s) first choice would have been for her to marry with another Espanol. And while the Espanoles came to the new world to make fortunes, not all were successful. If you recall the “dote” dialogue within the group a week or so ago, if a single woman didn’t have a healthy dowry, “limpieza de sangre” or not, an Espanola without money was out of luck unless she won the dote lottery! Furthermore, she was considered a liability to the rest of family that would have to support her for the rest of her life. In that situation, marrying an indio, especially if he had money, was better than unwillingly ending up in a convent.
Alice B Blake
— mytmo@netnitco.net wrote:
From: mytmo@netnitco.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indio Lavorio
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
Dear Luis:
Thank you for the link. So when I was told converted, it was not so much converted to the religion, but converted to the way of life or a laborer. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how an Indio would have been able to link up with a full Espanola, as was the case of Juana Maria Gonzales and Jose Ignacio Albiso. If the pressure was on for Espanol to marry Espanol and full blooded women were not so numerous, then it seems like Juan Maria would have had numerous suitors that would have been vying for her hand in marriage. Seems odd to me that her marriage was to a full Indian. Am I missing something or maybe the racist undertones were just a religious thing rather than what was going on in the general population. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Maureen Bejar
Thank you, everyone, for your insights on the lives of those on the haciendas. This was a great discussion. I also have another book to put on my book list. I relish the time when I can relax and read a few. I had a sneaking suspicion that money might have been the key, or possibly some other kind of arrangement between the families like rights to land or water. I have also found that the members of this family were baptized as anything from mestizo/mestiza to mulatto/mulatta or one sibling as espanolo. This was in San Miguel. It seemed to be quite subjective, so highly unreliable, and as we had discussed before may have been tied to the size of “donations”. I am starting to think that marrying within families was not so much to keep the race pure, but rather to keep wealth and land within the family.
Maureen
