I cant quite figure out what the last name of Cenon’s Grandmothers from both sides all i can read is Maria Magdelena…..???and for the other grandmother Ana maria…??? please help.
I cant quite figure out what the last name of Cenon’s Grandmothers from both sides all i can read is Maria Magdelena…..???and for the other grandmother Ana maria…??? please help.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15092-1073-99?cc=1410092&wc=6835015
Jose Cenon Munoz Duran is the one being baptized his parents are Jose Antonio Munoz and Rosalia Duran
It’s Ysidro Muños and Maria Magdalena Bermejo and Ana Maria Soria.
Alicia,
San Jose, ca
________________________________
From: “aflore2855@gmail.com”
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 7:40 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Need help in reading this document please help.
I cant quite figure out what the last name of Cenon’s Grandmothers from both sides all i can read is Maria Magdelena…..???and for the other grandmother Ana maria…??? please help.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15092-1073-99?cc=1410092&wc=6835015
Jose Cenon Munoz Duran is the one being baptized his parents are Jose Antonio Munoz and Rosalia Duran
Magdalena uses the compound surname Gonzales Bermejo in the baptism of her
son Joseph Ruphino –
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMPS-VBD
That might help you find more on them. There are several people with the
surname Gonzales Bermejo that show up in Zacatecas in familysearch. There
are two that show up as Gonzales Bermejo in Guadalajaradispensas.com
Armando
Armando,
Thanks for that tip it really helped alot.I had a question the only info so far iv’e found of Magdalenas was her son Joseph Ruphino i can’t really find anything else.I completley dislike how in the earlier baptims records the grandfathers and grandmothers weren’t really said only the parents and the padrinos.
There is nothing that can be done about the grandparents not being named in
records prior to 1800. Sometimes you have to use records of siblings,
descendants, informaciones matrimoniales, and dispensas together to
determine the grandparents. That’s the way it is for most of us.
There are more baptisms of the children of Isidro Muñoz and Magdalena
González Bermejo (Ruiz de Esparza). Set the search to any in Mexico
1750-1800 with the father as Isidro Munoz and the mother as Magdalena.
Don’t use a surname for Magdalena and you will she was mentioned once as
Maria Magdalena de Esparsa, another time her surname wasn’t recorded,
another time the surname was transcribed incorrectly as Bermefo.
I also tried the father without a surname and there are a few baptisms with
Isidro Duran and Magdalena Esparza as the parents. They married 29 Jul 1752
and might be the same as Isidro Munoz and Magdalena Gonzalez. This is a
link to the marriage.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-43110-81?cc=1410092&wc=6835673
You should also look for the información matrimonial apart from all of the
baptisms to see what you can find. The link to the volume for the
información matrimonial is
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
The marriage record for Magdalena Esparza states she was from Asientos
[Aguascalientes]. You should also look at the volumes of información
matrimonial located there since there can be record there as well as in
Nochistlán.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
Armando
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:59 PM, wrote:
> Armando,
>
> Thanks for that tip it really helped alot.I had a question the only info
> so far iv’e found of Magdalenas was her son Joseph Ruphino i can’t really
> find anything else.I completley dislike how in the earlier baptims records
> the grandfathers and grandmothers weren’t really said only the parents and
> the padrinos.
Armando and Abram,
I’ve done some work on the Munos/Gonzalez Bermejo lines and I have Joseph
Munos married to Magdalena Gonzalez Bermejo on January 15, 1755:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-42993-54?cc=1410092&wc=6835673
I believe this is Ysidro and welcome any feedback on this link.
I look forward to your response.
Regards,
Juan Aguayo
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Armando wrote:
> There is nothing that can be done about the grandparents not being named in
> records prior to 1800. Sometimes you have to use records of siblings,
> descendants, informaciones matrimoniales, and dispensas together to
> determine the grandparents. That’s the way it is for most of us.
>
> There are more baptisms of the children of Isidro Muñoz and Magdalena
> González Bermejo (Ruiz de Esparza). Set the search to any in Mexico
> 1750-1800 with the father as Isidro Munoz and the mother as Magdalena.
> Don’t use a surname for Magdalena and you will she was mentioned once as
> Maria Magdalena de Esparsa, another time her surname wasn’t recorded,
> another time the surname was transcribed incorrectly as Bermefo.
>
> I also tried the father without a surname and there are a few baptisms with
> Isidro Duran and Magdalena Esparza as the parents. They married 29 Jul 1752
> and might be the same as Isidro Munoz and Magdalena Gonzalez. This is a
> link to the marriage.
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-43110-81?cc=1410092&wc=6835673
>
> You should also look for the información matrimonial apart from all of the
> baptisms to see what you can find. The link to the volume for the
> información matrimonial is
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
>
> The marriage record for Magdalena Esparza states she was from Asientos
> [Aguascalientes]. You should also look at the volumes of información
> matrimonial located there since there can be record there as well as in
> Nochistlán.
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
>
> Armando
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:59 PM, wrote:
>
> > Armando,
> >
> > Thanks for that tip it really helped alot.I had a question the only info
> > so far iv’e found of Magdalenas was her son Joseph Ruphino i can’t really
> > find anything else.I completley dislike how in the earlier baptims
> records
> > the grandfathers and grandmothers weren’t really said only the parents
> and
> > the padrinos.
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
Abram,
Rosalia Duran has been very illusive for me. I believe she may actually be
Rosalia Aguirre. Does anyone have information that could help solve this
mystery? I have two marriage certificates for Jose Antonio Munoz and Maria
Rosalia Aguirre dated February 9, 1785, one found in Informacion
Matrimonial link of Nochistlan and the other in the Matrimonios link.
I’ve never been able to find a document containing Maria Rosailia’s parents
with the Duran last name. Can anyone shed some light on Maria Rosalia?
As far as Cenon’s grandmonthers I read Ana Maria Sorca. As for Maria
Magdalena, Armando is correct. Maria Magdalena does have a compound last
name of Gonzalez Bermejo. Her parents are Joseph Gonzalez Bermejo and
Gertrudis de Chaves.
Armando,
Thanks for the heads up on the dispensas for Gonzalez Bermejo. I’ll have to
look into that.
Regards,
Juan Aguayo
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Armando wrote:
> Magdalena uses the compound surname Gonzales Bermejo in the baptism of her
> son Joseph Ruphino –
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMPS-VBD
>
> That might help you find more on them. There are several people with the
> surname Gonzales Bermejo that show up in Zacatecas in familysearch. There
> are two that show up as Gonzales Bermejo in Guadalajaradispensas.com
>
> Armando
Juan, it’s a good thing you caught this quickly. I didn’t pay close enough
attention that Isidro Duran is Isidro Andrés and Isidro Muñoz is Isidro
Joseph and the marriage you found is for [Isidro] Joseph Muñoz which is who
Abram is looking for.
Saludos
Armando
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:27 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:
> Armando and Abram,
>
> I’ve done some work on the Munos/Gonzalez Bermejo lines and I have Joseph
> Munos married to Magdalena Gonzalez Bermejo on January 15, 1755:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-42993-54?cc=1410092&wc=6835673
>
> I believe this is Ysidro and welcome any feedback on this link.
>
> I look forward to your response.
>
> Regards,
> Juan Aguayo
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Armando wrote:
>
> > There is nothing that can be done about the grandparents not being named
> in
> > records prior to 1800. Sometimes you have to use records of siblings,
> > descendants, informaciones matrimoniales, and dispensas together to
> > determine the grandparents. That’s the way it is for most of us.
> >
> > There are more baptisms of the children of Isidro Muñoz and Magdalena
> > González Bermejo (Ruiz de Esparza). Set the search to any in Mexico
> > 1750-1800 with the father as Isidro Munoz and the mother as Magdalena.
> > Don’t use a surname for Magdalena and you will she was mentioned once as
> > Maria Magdalena de Esparsa, another time her surname wasn’t recorded,
> > another time the surname was transcribed incorrectly as Bermefo.
> >
> > I also tried the father without a surname and there are a few baptisms
> with
> > Isidro Duran and Magdalena Esparza as the parents. They married 29 Jul
> 1752
> > and might be the same as Isidro Munoz and Magdalena Gonzalez. This is a
> > link to the marriage.
> >
> >
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15185-43110-81?cc=1410092&wc=6835673
> >
> > You should also look for the información matrimonial apart from all of
> the
> > baptisms to see what you can find. The link to the volume for the
> > información matrimonial is
> >
> >
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
> >
> > The marriage record for Magdalena Esparza states she was from Asientos
> > [Aguascalientes]. You should also look at the volumes of información
> > matrimonial located there since there can be record there as well as in
> > Nochistlán.
> >
> >
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc=6835216
> >
> > Armando
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:59 PM, wrote:
> >
> > > Armando,
> > >
> > > Thanks for that tip it really helped alot.I had a question the only
> info
> > > so far iv’e found of Magdalenas was her son Joseph Ruphino i can’t
> really
> > > find anything else.I completley dislike how in the earlier baptims
> > records
> > > the grandfathers and grandmothers weren’t really said only the parents
> > and
> > > the padrinos.
> > > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
Juan,
There is a marriage for Joseph Gonzalez Bermejo and Gertrudis de Chaves but
it is on **15 August 1748 which would have been too late to be Madgalena
parents. However it states that she was a widow of Manuel González Bermejo
which leads me to believe he was the father of Magdalena and not Joseph.
Manuel and Gertrudis had children in San Felipe, Guanajuato which is on the
border of Jalisco. Here is a link to the marriage in case you or Abram want
to see it –
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19052-56576-48?cc=1874591&wc=12510891If
you or someone else has the información matrimonial I am interested in
getting that link.
Gertrudis shows to be the daughter of Alejandro de Chávez [Fragoso] and
Paula de Rivas.
There is an old post by Daniel Mendez del Camino that states the following:
“*Ten[g]o una dispensa que menciona a Marcelino Luziano de Villanueva y
Maria Leocadia*
*de Chavez Fragoso en dicha dispensa menciona que es hija de Alejandro de
Chavez Fragoso
y Paula de Rivas y que Maria Leocadia era natural de San Felipe (Gto.) en
el Obispado de Michoacan.
Me recuerdo de esto pero no se cual dispensa necesito revisarlo de nuevo,
permite algunos dias**
para buscarlo. *
*Estos ultimos son mis antepasados Jose Antonio de Chavez Fragoso casado con
Maria de los Dolores de Colunga Cortes, natural de Villa de Reyes (SLP.).
La razon porque Maria
Leocadia era mencionada es que era testiga ya que una de sus hermanas Maria
Gertrudis de
Chavez Fragoso caso a dos Gonzalez-Bermejo, los dos eran primos primer
nupcias con
Juan Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo hijo de Juan Gonzalez de Bermejo y Gertrudis
Lopez de Nava
y segunda nupcias con dispensa por ser primo de su esposo
Jose Gonzalez Bermejo hijo de Diego Gonzalez Bermejo y Andrea Lopez de Nava*
.”
“http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/19122
He also stated the following:
“*My Antonio Chaves y Fragoso married all the way in San Luis Potosi and
settled in Aguas, he was son of Alejandro Chaves Fragoso, son of Diego
Chaves y Fragoso, son of Pedro Chaves y Fragoso son of the patriarch and
matriarch, Leonardo Fragoso and Ana de Chaves. They owned much land in
Teocaltiche.*”
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/17966?page=3
If this is the same Diego Chaves y Fragoso I think it is then he married
Antonia de Villalobos on 25 Feb 1664 in Aguascalientes
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12446-30300-45?cc=1410092&wc=6810679
Antonia was the daughter of Francisco de Villalobos y Pérez and María de
Torres alias María Vásquez de Retamosa alias María Macías Valadez.
Francisco de Villalobos was the son of Cristóbal de Villalobos and María
Pérez de Nava.
Let me know what you think of all of this.
Saludos,
Armando
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:36 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:
> Abram,
>
>
>
> Rosalia Duran has been very illusive for me. I believe she may actually be
> Rosalia Aguirre. Does anyone have information that could help solve this
> mystery? I have two marriage certificates for Jose Antonio Munoz and Maria
> Rosalia Aguirre dated February 9, 1785, one found in Informacion
> Matrimonial link of Nochistlan and the other in the Matrimonios link.
>
>
> I’ve never been able to find a document containing Maria Rosailia’s parents
> with the Duran last name. Can anyone shed some light on Maria Rosalia?
>
>
>
> As far as Cenon’s grandmonthers I read Ana Maria Sorca. As for Maria
> Magdalena, Armando is correct. Maria Magdalena does have a compound last
> name of Gonzalez Bermejo. Her parents are Joseph Gonzalez Bermejo and
> Gertrudis de Chaves.
>
>
>
> Armando,
>
>
> Thanks for the heads up on the dispensas for Gonzalez Bermejo. I’ll have to
> look into that.
>
> Regards,
> Juan Aguayo
>
> On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Armando wrote:
>
> > Magdalena uses the compound surname Gonzales Bermejo in the baptism of
> her
> > son Joseph Ruphino –
> > https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMPS-VBD
> >
> > That might help you find more on them. There are several people with the
> > surname Gonzales Bermejo that show up in Zacatecas in familysearch. There
> > are two that show up as Gonzales Bermejo in Guadalajaradispensas.com
> >
> > Armando
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
Armando,
Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria Magdalena Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and Gertrudis De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??
Abram
Since Magdalena married in 1755 it is impossible for her to have been born
after the marriage of Joseph González Bermejo and Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso
which took place on **15 August 1748 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. Therefore it
is my belief there was an error that Joseph was her father and it reality
it was Manuel,the first husband of Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso who was a
cousin of Joseph.
Armando
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:31 PM, wrote:
> Armando,
>
> Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria Magdalena
> Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and Gertrudis
> De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea
> Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??
>
>
> Abram
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Armando,
You make a good point. This requires more investigation. I’ll let you know
if I find any clues. What I do know is that Maria Gertrudis de Chabes did
marry two cousins, Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo (first husband) and Joseph
Gonzales Bermejo (second husband).
Regards,
Juan
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:21 AM, Armando wrote:
> Since Magdalena married in 1755 it is impossible for her to have been born
> after the marriage of Joseph González Bermejo and Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso
> which took place on **15 August 1748 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. Therefore it
> is my belief there was an error that Joseph was her father and it reality
> it was Manuel,the first husband of Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso who was a
> cousin of Joseph.
>
> Armando
>
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:31 PM, wrote:
>
> > Armando,
> >
> > Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria
> Magdalena
> > Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and
> Gertrudis
> > De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea
> > Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??
> >
> >
> > Abram
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
Armando,
I’ve done a little more research and in the dispensa for the marriage of
Gertrudis de Chabes Joseph Gonzales Bermejo you will see on the first page
that Maria Gertrudis had two children from her first marriage with Manuel
Gonzales:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18410-36169-93?cc=1874591&wc=12512688
I found the babtismal records for both of these sons in San Felipe,
Guanajuato. The first for Franco. Gil Gonzales babtised on September 10 ,
1735 whose padrinos are listed as Alejandro Chabes and Gertrudis Rivas:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-11073-69?cc=1860831&wc=13965394
And the second for Ramon Antto.Gonzales Chabes babtised September 15, 1736
whose padrinos are listed as Antto. Chabes and Paula Ribas:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-10879-85?cc=1860831&wc=13965394
So I now believe that Maria Magdalena Gonzales Bermejo is not the daughter
of Gertrudis de Chabes first marriage with Manuel Gonzales Bermejo.
As you will see in the dispensa above, I believe it mentions that Gertrudis
de Chabes adopted two girls our of her good will due to their mother dying
and their father being too old to care for them. Take a look at the
dispensa and let me know if you have a different understanding. One of the
adopted girls may be Maria Magdalena Gonzales Bermejo.
Let me know what you think.
Saludos,
Juan
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:
> Armando,
>
> You make a good point. This requires more investigation. I’ll let you know
> if I find any clues. What I do know is that Maria Gertrudis de Chabes did
> marry two cousins, Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo (first husband) and Joseph
> Gonzales Bermejo (second husband).
>
> Regards,
> Juan
>
> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:21 AM, Armando wrote:
>
>> Since Magdalena married in 1755 it is impossible for her to have been born
>> after the marriage of Joseph González Bermejo and Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso
>> which took place on **15 August 1748 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. Therefore it
>> is my belief there was an error that Joseph was her father and it reality
>> it was Manuel,the first husband of Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso who was a
>> cousin of Joseph.
>>
>> Armando
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:31 PM, wrote:
>>
>> > Armando,
>> >
>> > Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria
>> Magdalena
>> > Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and
>> Gertrudis
>> > De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea
>> > Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??
>> >
>> >
>> > Abram
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
>> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>> >
>> > To post, send email to:
>> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
>> >
>> > To change your subscription, log on to:
>> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>> >
Give me a few days to read it over.
Saludos
Armando
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 1:42 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:
> Armando,
>
> I’ve done a little more research and in the dispensa for the marriage of
> Gertrudis de Chabes Joseph Gonzales Bermejo you will see on the first page
> that Maria Gertrudis had two children from her first marriage with Manuel
> Gonzales:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18410-36169-93?cc=1874591&wc=12512688
>
> I found the babtismal records for both of these sons in San Felipe,
> Guanajuato. The first for Franco. Gil Gonzales babtised on September 10 ,
> 1735 whose padrinos are listed as Alejandro Chabes and Gertrudis Rivas:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-11073-69?cc=1860831&wc=13965394
>
> And the second for Ramon Antto.Gonzales Chabes babtised September 15, 1736
> whose padrinos are listed as Antto. Chabes and Paula Ribas:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-10879-85?cc=1860831&wc=13965394
>
> So I now believe that Maria Magdalena Gonzales Bermejo is not the daughter
> of Gertrudis de Chabes first marriage with Manuel Gonzales Bermejo.
>
> As you will see in the dispensa above, I believe it mentions that Gertrudis
> de Chabes adopted two girls our of her good will due to their mother dying
> and their father being too old to care for them. Take a look at the
> dispensa and let me know if you have a different understanding. One of the
> adopted girls may be Maria Magdalena Gonzales Bermejo.
>
> Let me know what you think.
>
> Saludos,
> Juan
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Juan Aguayo >wrote:
>
> > Armando,
> >
> > You make a good point. This requires more investigation. I’ll let you
> know
> > if I find any clues. What I do know is that Maria Gertrudis de Chabes did
> > marry two cousins, Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo (first husband) and Joseph
> > Gonzales Bermejo (second husband).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Juan
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:21 AM, Armando wrote:
> >
> >> Since Magdalena married in 1755 it is impossible for her to have been
> born
> >> after the marriage of Joseph González Bermejo and Gertrudis Chávez
> Fragoso
> >> which took place on **15 August 1748 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. Therefore
> it
> >> is my belief there was an error that Joseph was her father and it
> reality
> >> it was Manuel,the first husband of Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso who was a
> >> cousin of Joseph.
> >>
> >> Armando
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:31 PM, wrote:
> >>
> >> > Armando,
> >> >
> >> > Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria
> >> Magdalena
> >> > Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and
> >> Gertrudis
> >> > De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea
> >> > Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Abram
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> >> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >> >
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> >> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
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Juan and Abram,
I have finally read the dispensa. It has the following info:
Juan Manuel González Bermejo was buried more than seven years and was
buried in San Felipe, Guanajuato. This would have been in 1741 or 1740.
Joseph González Bermejo admits to having had an illicit relationship with
María Gertrudis de Chávez for seven years and fathering two children with
her.
María Gertrudis de Chávez is stated to be huerfana de madre and even though
her dad is still alive he is so old he cannot work and because of this she
lives with one of her sons; and she is a woman of more than thirty-three
years of age and because of her poverty and family there would not be
anyone of her equal that would want to marry her.
There are two impediments. One for segundo con cuarto grado de
consanguinidad between Joseph González Bermejo and María Gertrudis de
Chávez and a tercero grado de afinidad because Juan Manuel González Bermejo
and Joseph González Bermejo were second cousins.
Because of this info and other records we can now assume that Magdalena was
born out of wedlock, between 1741 and 1 and was the daughter of Jospeh
González Bermejo as her marriage record had stated.
María Gertrudis de Chávez Fragoso was baptized 16 April 1715 in
Aguascalientes to Alejandro de Chávez Fragoso and Paula de Rivas Lozano
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-13033-24724-1?cc=1410092&wc=6809994
Alejandro de Chávez Fragoso and Paula de Rivas Lozano had their licencia or
información matrimonial 04 Feb 1702 Volume 1702: image 36 This was found
thanks to the PDF files made by George Fulton.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11671-66120-28?cc=1410092&wc=6810352
The parents of Alejandro de Chávez Fragoso were Diego de Chávez Fragoso and
Antonia de Villalobos married 22 February 1664 in Aguascalientes
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12446-30300-45?cc=1410092&wc=6810679
The parents of Antonia de Villalobos were Francisco de Villalobos y Pérez
and María Vásquez de Retamosa married 22 May 1640 in Teocaltiche
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19053-2891-27?cc=1874591&wc=12510890
The parents of Francisco de Villalobos y Pérez were Cristóbal de Villalobos
and María Pérez de Nava married 19 October 1594 en la Ciudad de México
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-11174-910-34?cc=1615259&wc=11160016
The parents of María Vásquez de Retamosa, wife of Francisco de Villalobos y
Pérez, were Gaspar Macías Valadez y Vásquez de Retamosa and Mariana Torres
married 26 March 1612 in Aguascalientes
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-51104-22?cc=1410092&wc=6809985
Saludos
Armando
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 1:42 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:
> Armando,
>
> I’ve done a little more research and in the dispensa for the marriage of
> Gertrudis de Chabes Joseph Gonzales Bermejo you will see on the first page
> that Maria Gertrudis had two children from her first marriage with Manuel
> Gonzales:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18410-36169-93?cc=1874591&wc=12512688
>
> I found the babtismal records for both of these sons in San Felipe,
> Guanajuato. The first for Franco. Gil Gonzales babtised on September 10 ,
> 1735 whose padrinos are listed as Alejandro Chabes and Gertrudis Rivas:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-11073-69?cc=1860831&wc=13965394
>
> And the second for Ramon Antto.Gonzales Chabes babtised September 15, 1736
> whose padrinos are listed as Antto. Chabes and Paula Ribas:
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20584-10879-85?cc=1860831&wc=13965394
>
> So I now believe that Maria Magdalena Gonzales Bermejo is not the daughter
> of Gertrudis de Chabes first marriage with Manuel Gonzales Bermejo.
>
> As you will see in the dispensa above, I believe it mentions that Gertrudis
> de Chabes adopted two girls our of her good will due to their mother dying
> and their father being too old to care for them. Take a look at the
> dispensa and let me know if you have a different understanding. One of the
> adopted girls may be Maria Magdalena Gonzales Bermejo.
>
> Let me know what you think.
>
> Saludos,
> Juan
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Juan Aguayo >wrote:
>
> > Armando,
> >
> > You make a good point. This requires more investigation. I’ll let you
> know
> > if I find any clues. What I do know is that Maria Gertrudis de Chabes did
> > marry two cousins, Manuel Gonzalez Bermejo (first husband) and Joseph
> > Gonzales Bermejo (second husband).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Juan
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:21 AM, Armando wrote:
> >
> >> Since Magdalena married in 1755 it is impossible for her to have been
> born
> >> after the marriage of Joseph González Bermejo and Gertrudis Chávez
> Fragoso
> >> which took place on **15 August 1748 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. Therefore
> it
> >> is my belief there was an error that Joseph was her father and it
> reality
> >> it was Manuel,the first husband of Gertrudis Chávez Fragoso who was a
> >> cousin of Joseph.
> >>
> >> Armando
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:31 PM, wrote:
> >>
> >> > Armando,
> >> >
> >> > Correct me if im wrong Armando.Ysidro Joseph Munos Married Maria
> >> Magdalena
> >> > Bermejo.Maria Magdalenas parents are Joseph Gonzalez-Bermejo and
> >> Gertrudis
> >> > De Chaves.Joseph parents are Diego Gonzalez-Bermejo and Andrea
> >> > Lopes.Gertrudis parents are Alexandro De Chaves and Puala Rivas??
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Abram
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> >> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >> >
> >> > To post, send email to:
> >> > research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
> >> >
> >> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> >> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >> >
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> >>
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> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
