Nicolas Ballin appears as Nicolas Vasquez Vallin in the baptism of his
daughter Maria Iphigenia. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NP11-Y4Z My
hypothesis is that he is the same Nicolas Vasquez Vallin that married
Petrona de Islas Calderon 28 Jul 1692. Nicolas Ballin also had children
with Petra or Petrona Olivares. Petra, Petrona, and Petronila are
interchangeable. Hopefully someone else here can clarify if these Petras
are one woman, two women or three women with the same first name but
different surnames.

Armando

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 6:47 PM, wrote:

> Does any one have any info on both of these individuals.The only info that
> i have from them both from Nochistlan Zacatecas Mexico, And i have their
> son birth record Juan Ballin Ramires.Please anyone who has info.
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1-15087-19061-21?**
> cc=1410092&wc=6834962

Abram Flores
So Nicolas Ballin and Petrona Ramires are not husband and wife?The name ballin can be interchanged to Vallin how interesting.And yea that name name got me really confused becuase i would look into some records and see Petra Petrona Petronila and though if they were Nicolas’s wife but the name used interchangeably or his Wife’s, but also the record shows other locations not Nochistlan Zacatecas Mexico.Hopefully someone can help to clarify this.Here is the link again it seems to be broken
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15187-52433-14?cc=1410092&wc=6835672

Abram Flores

I never said this nor did I infer it. What made you misinterpret what was
said?

Armando

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, wrote:

> Abram Flores
> So Nicolas Ballin and Petrona Ramires are not husband and wife?
>

Abram Flores
How he married both of those woman you just mentioned that sort of confused me.He couldn’t of have 3 wifes in his life time?

Abram Flores

Abram and Armando:

I have the following information in my database:

Nicolás Vázquez Ballín (aka Nicolás Ballín) married Victoria de Montañez y Sotomayor 16 Aug 1663 in Aguascalientes. They had three children all born in Aguascalientes between 1663-1670 : Juan (b.1666), Bartholome (b. 1668) and Nicolás (b.1670). Their son Nicolás Ballin de Sotomayor, baptized 2 Dec 1670 in Aguascalientes, married Petrona Enríquez de Calderón (aka Petra de Islas, aka Petronila de Islas y Calderón). Their marriage was recorded 26 Jun 1692 in Aguascalientes and a month later 28 Jul 1692 in Nochistlán.

Sources:

LDS Film 0299823 Marriages 1663-1702 Aguascalientes, Ags.
LDS Film 0226725 Marriages 1691-1736 Nochistlán, Zac.

Nicolás Ballín de Sotomayor and Petrona Enríquez de Calderón had two children, Bartholomé and Juan. Juan was baptized 23 Sep 1693 in Nochistlán. His mother died shortly after giving birth and was buried 4 Dec 1693 in Nochistlán. According to Mary Lou Montagna, Nicolás Ballin de Sotomayor married Petronila de Cabrera in 1698. Some of the information in this message comes from “The Genealogy of Juan Montañez and his descendants in Aguascalientes, San Luis Potosí and Zacatecas,” Published by the Society of Hispanic Historical and Ancestral Research, Journal IV, (c) 1998 edited by Mary Lou Montagna and Ophelia Marquez. Some of Mary Lou Montagna’s information comes from correspondence with Jaime Holcombe. I have a paper copy somewhere but is lost in my files. Perhaps someone can provide a copy.

Juan Ballin married Elvira Delgadillo 13 Jun 1721 in Nochistlán and had at least four children: Josepha, María, Juana-Gertrudis and Pablo-Joseph. María was baptized 22 Oct 1722 in Nochistlán.

Nicolás Ballín (who married Petronila Ramírez and baptized a son named Juan in Nochistlán 24 May 1722) is probably related. More research to follow and document these lines is required. Recommended sources:

“Genealogía de Nochistlán, Antiguo Reino de la Nueva Galicia en el Siglo XVII según sus Archivos Parroquiales” por José Luis Vázquez y Rodríguez de Frías, and
“Letters to Mary Lou Montagna” by Jaime Holcombe.

Hope this helps.

BILL FIGUEROA

—– Original Message —–
From: “Armando”
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nicolas Ballin Petrona Ramires

Nicolas Ballin appears as Nicolas Vasquez Vallin in the baptism of his daughter Maria Iphigenia. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NP11-Y4Z My hypothesis is that he is the same Nicolas Vasquez Vallin that married Petrona de Islas Calderon 28 Jul 1692. Nicolas Ballin also had children with Petra or Petrona Olivares. Petra, Petrona, and Petronila are interchangeable. Hopefully someone else here can clarify if these Petras are one woman, two women or three women with the same first name but different surnames.

Armando

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 6:47 PM, wrote:

Does any one have any info on both of these individuals.The only info that
i have from them both from Nochistlan Zacatecas Mexico, And i have their
son birth record Juan Ballin Ramires.Please anyone who has info.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1-15087-19061-21?**
cc=1410092&wc=6834962

Abram Flores
Bill

Thanks for this great info but im still sort of confused how many nicolas’s were their in total?Did Nicolas Billan or Villan come from Aguascalientes in then later he migrate to Nochistlan?And how many Petras were there to.Do you know where i can get this book
Genealogía de Nochistlán, Antiguo Reino de la Nueva Galicia en el Siglo XVII según sus Archivos Parroquiales” por José Luis Vázquez y Rodríguez de Frías,

Abram Flores

In those days many women died of childbirth the men would then remarry even
if they were 65 years old. One of my ancestors married four times and had
16 children. So yes, he could have had three wives.

Armando

On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 10:06 PM, wrote:

> Abram Flores
> How he married both of those woman you just mentioned that sort of
> confused me.He couldn’t of have 3 wifes in his life time?
>
> Abram Flores
>

Bill and Abram:

I had the answer but I didn’t realize it until I went back through my
records. There is a dispensa for Josefa daughter of Nicolás Vallín and
Petrona Ramirez and granddaughter of Victoria de Sotomayor.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18566-43995-45?cc=1874591&wc=12512791Therefore
we have proof that the husband of Petrona Enríquez de Calderón
was also the husband of Petrona Ramirez. Based on the info you provided
with the date Petrona Enríquez de Calderón died, 4 Dec 1693, and the
approxinate date of the marriage of Nicolás and Petronila de Cabrera, 1698,
means she should be the same person as Petrona Ramirez because Nicolás and
Petrona Ramirez had the child I previously mentioned on 05 Dec 1701
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NP11-Y4Z They also had Rosa María in
1720 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N1PV-5M4

The unanswered question is whether or not Nicolás Vallín and Petra de
Olivares the same couple as Nicolás Vallín and Petrona Ramirez alias
Petronila de Cabrera

Saludos
Armando

On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Bill Figueroa wrote:

> Abram and Armando:
>
> I have the following information in my database:
>
> Nicolás Vázquez Ballín (aka Nicolás Ballín) married Victoria de Montañez y
> Sotomayor 16 Aug 1663 in Aguascalientes. They had three children all born
> in Aguascalientes between 1663-1670 : Juan (b.1666), Bartholome (b. 1668)
> and Nicolás (b.1670). Their son Nicolás Ballin de Sotomayor, baptized 2
> Dec 1670 in Aguascalientes, married Petrona Enríquez de Calderón (aka Petra
> de Islas, aka Petronila de Islas y Calderón). Their marriage was recorded
> 26 Jun 1692 in Aguascalientes and a month later 28 Jul 1692 in Nochistlán.
>
> Sources:
>
> LDS Film 0299823 Marriages 1663-1702 Aguascalientes, Ags.
> LDS Film 0226725 Marriages 1691-1736 Nochistlán, Zac.
>
> Nicolás Ballín de Sotomayor and Petrona Enríquez de Calderón had two
> children, Bartholomé and Juan. Juan was baptized 23 Sep 1693 in
> Nochistlán. His mother died shortly after giving birth and was buried 4
> Dec 1693 in Nochistlán. According to Mary Lou Montagna, Nicolás Ballin de
> Sotomayor married Petronila de Cabrera in 1698. Some of the information in
> this message comes from “The Genealogy of Juan Montañez and his descendants
> in Aguascalientes, San Luis Potosí and Zacatecas,” Published by the Society
> of Hispanic Historical and Ancestral Research, Journal IV, (c) 1998 edited
> by Mary Lou Montagna and Ophelia Marquez. Some of Mary Lou Montagna’s
> information comes from correspondence with Jaime Holcombe. I have a paper
> copy somewhere but is lost in my files. Perhaps someone can provide a copy.
>
> Juan Ballin married Elvira Delgadillo 13 Jun 1721 in Nochistlán and had at
> least four children: Josepha, María, Juana-Gertrudis and Pablo-Joseph.
> María was baptized 22 Oct 1722 in Nochistlán.
>
> Nicolás Ballín (who married Petronila Ramírez and baptized a son named
> Juan in Nochistlán 24 May 1722) is probably related. More research to
> follow and document these lines is required. Recommended sources:
>
> “Genealogía de Nochistlán, Antiguo Reino de la Nueva Galicia en el Siglo
> XVII según sus Archivos Parroquiales” por José Luis Vázquez y Rodríguez de
> Frías, and
> “Letters to Mary Lou Montagna” by Jaime Holcombe.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> BILL FIGUEROA
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: “Armando”
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nicolas Ballin Petrona Ramires
>
>
> Nicolas Ballin appears as Nicolas Vasquez Vallin in the baptism of his
> daughter Maria Iphigenia. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NP11-Y4ZMy hypothesis is that he is the same Nicolas Vasquez Vallin that married
> Petrona de Islas Calderon 28 Jul 1692. Nicolas Ballin also had children
> with Petra or Petrona Olivares. Petra, Petrona, and Petronila are
> interchangeable. Hopefully someone else here can clarify if these Petras
> are one woman, two women or three women with the same first name but
> different surnames.
>
> Armando
>
> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 6:47 PM, wrote:
>
> Does any one have any info on both of these individuals.The only info that
> i have from them both from Nochistlan Zacatecas Mexico, And i have their
> son birth record Juan Ballin Ramires.Please anyone who has info.
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1-15087-19061-21?**
> cc=1410092&wc=6834962 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15087-19061-21?cc=1410092&wc=6834962
> >

Abram Flores

Armando:

Wow that is terribly sad,4 times 16 children.Okay now i believe you, i don’t get it what was Nicolas Ballin doing in Guadalajara wasn’t he from Nochistlan zacatecas Mexico?
Abram Flores

I’ve never thought of it as sad. Just as that’s the way things were back
then.

Nicolás was not in Guadalajara. The dispensa was for his daughter Josefa.
Nicolás is mentioned as being deceased. difunto, in the dispensa. You
should read it a few times over to try and understand it. The dispensas
were done by the bishop of Guadalajara. The paperwork would be sent to him
and he would read over it and decide whether or not to grant the dispensa
or waiver for the 3rd, 4th or in some cases 2nd cousins to marry.

Armando

On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 8:33 PM, wrote:

> Abram Flores
>
> Armando:
>
> Wow that is terribly sad,4 times 16 children.Okay now i believe you, i
> don’t get it what was Nicolas Ballin doing in Guadalajara wasn’t he from
> Nochistlan zacatecas Mexico?
>

Abram Flores

Armando:
I would read it over and over but my spanish is really bad i would tell my mom but she is not here.Can you please define the word dispensa to me?

Abram

Armando and Abram:

The marriage dispensation extended by the Dioceses of Guadalajara to Ignacio Delgadillo and Josepha Ballin on 2 April 1731 confirms that Nicolás Ballin who married Petrona Ramírez was the son of Nicolás Vázquez Ballín and Victoria de Montañez y Sotomayor. The link provided by Armando proves it.

Recapping: Nicolás Vázquez Ballín (aka Nicolás Ballín) married Victoria de Montañez y Sotomayor 16 Aug 1663 in Aguascalientes. Victoria was from Sierra de Pinos, where she was raised by her uncle Joseph Martín de Sotomayor and his wife Anna Vicente (Victoria’s half sister). Sierra de Pinos is fairly close to Aguascalientes. She married twice, first to Nicolás Vázquez Ballin and after he died to Andrés Ruiz de Esparza. Her son Nicolás Ballin de Sotomayor was baptized 2 Dec 1670 in Aguascalientes. In 1692 Nicolás married Petrona Enríquez de Calderón (aka Petra de Islas, aka Petronila de Islas y Calderón) who resided in Nochistlán. Their marriage was recorded 26 June 1692 in Aguascalientes and 28 July 1692 in Nochistlán. They settled in Nochistlán where they had two children, Bartholomé and Juan Ballin. Petrona died 4 Dec 1693, only 16 months after their wedding. Nicolás remarried about five years later when he was 28 years old. His second wife Petrona Ramírez had a child María Iphigenia, baptized 5 December 1701 in Nochistlán. Another child, Juan, was baptized 24 May 1722 in Nochistlán. Other children have also been identified.

I believe Petronila de Cabrera and Petra de Olivares are aliases of Petrona Ramírez. Just a gut feeling that needs to be proved. The next step is to find the marriage record of Nicolás Ballin and Petrona Ramírez, probably in Nochistlán.

The book “Genealogía de Nochistlán, Antiguo Reino de la Nueva Galicia en el Siglo XVII según sus Archivos Parroquiales” by José Luis Vázquez y Rodríguez de Frías has been out of print for about 10 years. Unfortunately, José Luis is no longer with us. He died tragically in 2005 and, as far as I know, there are no plans to print a second edition. You can probably find a copy at a public library or Family History Center here in the US.

BILL FIGUEROA

Abram Flores,

Ok! I give in…I’ve been reading your postings, and I can no longer refrain  from asking the following questions.

If these questions are too personal or inappropriate for this list group, then just hit the delete key.

1.) How old are you?

2.)  Is English your first language? Was/is  Spanish spoken in your home?

3.)  You mentioned being in school, what grade are you in ?

and finally …

4.) Why are you researching your ancestry… is this something you elected to do or is someone pressuring you to learn more about your ancestors?

Suggested reading material… get a Webster’s 21st Century Spanish/English Dictionary.

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy CA

 
—– Original Message —–
From: aflore2855@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:59:02 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nicolas Ballin Petrona Ramires

Abram Flores

Armando:
I would read it over and over but my spanish is really bad i would tell my mom but she is not here.Can you please define the word dispensa to me?

Abram

Abram Flores

Pat Silva

1)I am 15 years old

2)Actually spanish was my first language but then i moved into my aunts house where only english was spoken and mostly all my freinds spoke english and portuguese.And after a while it was hard for me to read spanish and talk it but i can understand.

3)Im a sophmore in high school.

4)I chose to learn about my ancestry it seemed so interesting and i just got completely addicted i wanted to find out what part of europe my ancestors came from just really curiouse.