Hola Bill ,I went to www.familysearch.org and looked up Felipe Macias Valadez
and Maria Tavera . They have Nicolas Macias Valadez and Leonor Retamosa as Parents of felipe. I know yours is right because of a marriage document. How or why does familysearch differ so much yet similar ?
thanks for your time
Ronnie
> From: bill_figueroa@usa.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 15:50:29 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Polonia Torres Y Nicolas Ramirez -15thcentury
>
> Stephanie,
>
> In his book “Aguascalientes y su región de influencia hasta 1810 – Sociedad y Política” historian José Antonio Gutiérrez Gutiérrez mentions that before the founding of Aguascalientes in 1575, Nicolás Ramírez, Cristobal de Mata, Francisco Gómez and Menzo López had been granted some land, which I suppose is where “Hacienda de las Peñuelas” is located. The earliest church records of Aguascalientes start in the early 1600s, so none of the baptismal records of the children of Nicolás Ramírez and Polonia de Torres are in the books. We know they had at least nine children, all born in Aguascalientes. Some of them used the surname Tavera, so there is one clue about their grandparents’ surname. As you probably know, using the surname of a grandparent was not uncommon in those days. There are marriage records from Aguascalientes where there is information about some of their children. For example the marriage of their daughter María de Tavera to Phelipe Macías Valadez on 01 July 1618 reads as follows:
>
> “El 1 de julio de 1618 contrajo matrimonio Phelipe Macías Valadés, hijo de Alonso Macías Valadés y de María de Retamosa, con María de Tavera, hija de Nicolás Ramírez y de Polonia de Torres, vecinos de Aguascalientes. Testigos Alonso Macías y Francisco Macías. Veláronse el 3 de octubre de 1618. Fueron padrinos María de Torres y Antonio Tavera, hermanos de la pretensa.”
>
> Some of the children were married at the private chapel in Las Peñuelas, like Mariana de Tavera who married Gaspar Macías Valadez on 06 March 1622. Their marriage record reads as follows:
>
> “El 6 de marzo de 1612, en la Estancia de las Peñuelas de Nicolás Ramírez, contrajeron matrimonio Gaspar Macías y Mariana de Torres, siendo testigos Alonso Macías, y los mellizos y Nicolás Ramírez.”
>
> Another daughter, Agueda de Torres y Tavera, married Hernando de Valdivia at the same chapel on 26 Jan 1622. Hernando was born at Villa de Serena, Extremadura, Reynos de Castilla.
>
> I suppose the land grants are archived at the “Archivo de Tierras y Aguas” which is now part of the “Archivo Histórico de Jalisco”. Not to discourage you, but I have been through hundreds of documents from Tierras y Aguas and have never seen anything related to Nicolás Ramírez or Polonia de Torres.
>
> I visited the ex-Hacienda de las Peñuelas in 2008, which is less than one mile from the airport. Interesting place. I was lucky to be there while a crew was filming a movie and was allowed to go in. I guess the guard thought I was a member of the crew. 🙂 Unfortunately, there are no documents stored there.
>
> Bill Figueroa
Hey Ronnie,
The marriage record of Phelipe Macías Valadez and María de Tavera clearly
states that the parents of Phelipe were Alonso Macías Valadez and María de
Retamosa. I cannot access the record online because the Family Search Pilot
site is down for maintenance, but here is what I extracted from microfilm
about this couple (LDS Film 0299421 Aguascalientes Marriages 1601-1662) :
“El 1 de julio de 1618 contrajo matrimonio Phelipe Macías Valadés, hijo de
Alonso Macías Valadés y de María de Retamosa, con María de Tavera, hija de
Nicolás Ramírez y de Polonia de Torres, vecinos de Aguascalientes. Testigos
Alonso Macías y Francisco Macías. Veláronse el 3 de octubre de 1618.
Fueron padrinos María de Torres y Antonio Tavera, hermanos de la pretensa.”
The submitter, a member of the LDS Church whose name does not appear in the
IGI record (F867345 Sheet 024), changed the parent’s names to Nicolás Macías
Valadez and Leonor de Retamosa, giving no indication of what source or
reason he used for changing the names. I have not found any other records
to verify this, but perhaps someone in the group has checked the early
records from Lagos and has an answer. Was Alonso Macías Valadez a brother
of Nicolás Macías Valadez, and María de Retamosa a sister of Leonor de
Retamosa, i.e. another case of two brothers married to two sisters? Or did
the person who recorded the marriage (Priest) in the books made a mistake?
Bill Figueroa
Hi Bill and Ronnie, I have the same as Bill, Felipe is clearly son of Alonso and Maria. I
think the person did not know two Alonso existed in this family Alonso I “el tio” and Alonso II el sobrino. The last one marrying Maria de Velasco, I have her name like that but clearly used Ramirez de Tavera or just Tavera. I think the testigos were Alonso’ cousins, Alonso and Francisco.
Im confused, Maria de Torres and Maria Tavera are different? Im sure the person was confused about the two Alonso being the same one. Ill keep looking, I do have a source, Alonso and Nicolas were brothers. -Daniel Camino
IGI Individual Record
FamilySearch™ International Genealogical Index v5.0
Mexico
Search Results | Download | Print
ALONSO MACIAS VALADEZ
Pedigree
Male
Family
Event(s):
Birth:
About 1595
Christening:
Death:
27 JAN 1645
Burial:
Parents:
Father:
NICOLAS MACIAS VALADEZ
Family
Mother:
LEONOR RETAMOSA
Marriages:
Spouse:
URSULA ALVAREZ
Family
Marriage:
About 1619
Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico
Messages:
Family group record submitted by a member of the LDS Church. The record includes the submitter’s name and address and names and relationships of family members. The address may be outdated. Some information is estimated. To find the record on the film, you must know the batch and sheet number.
Source Information:
Batch Number:
F867345
Sheet:
044
Source Call No.:
1553960
Type:
Film
_________________________________________________________________
Daniel,
The marriage record of Phelipe Macías Valadez and María de Tavera reads
“Fueron padrinos María de Torres y Antonio Tavera, hermanos de la pretensa.”
I believe it refers to Mariana de Torres and Antonio Tavera, younger brother
and sister of María de Tavera. The witnesses at the wedding ceremony were
Alonso Macías and Francisco Macías, both Phelipe’s brothers.
Bill Figueroa
Bill,
Francisco De Villalovos married Maria Vasquez De Retamosa.Parent of Maria are Gaspar Masias Valadez Vasquez and Maria De Torres.Parent of Gaspas are Nicolas Masias Valadez and mother Eleanor De Retamosa.Parent of Maria De Torres are Polonia Torres and Nicolas Ramirez De Tavera.Parent of Nicolas Macias are Blas Macias Aceves and Catalina Ramirez
Abram
