With all this discussion of our European ancestry.  How did all of you claiming European ancestry find documentation verifying it?  I’d appreciate it if you’ve researched your family in Spain, France, etc. that you share how you did it.   I’ve posted this request twice before and received no response.   My Santelices line ends with a 1793 Queretero marriage entry stating that the groom Juan Fermin Santelices is from Santander, Castilla.   I can’t believe that I’m the only one in our group in this situation.   Please see previous entry.  Thanks in advance for your help.        Alice
 
 
 
 
— On Thu, 4/15/10, Alice Blake wrote:

From: Alice Blake
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Research Help
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 1:27 AM

    — On Fri, 4/9/10, Alice Blake wrote:

From: Alice Blake
Subject: Teaching Moment
To: research@Nuestrosranchos.com
Date: Friday, April 9, 2010, 5:29 PM

Dear Group,
 I’ve come across two new situations that have become stumbling blocks to my reseach.   I refer to them as stumbling blocks, not brick walls, because    I’m sure that our more experienced members have dealt with them, and are willing to share and educate.
 
1.  How do you research in Spain when you don’t find IGI films to view?  I’ve studied the PARES site and have found posssibly useful information, but don’t know how to access birth, baptismal, or other records or documents to confirm that I’m dealing with the right person.  I’m sure I need to acquire a new mindset, different from what I’ve done up to now with online IGI and FHC films, and I’m willing to learn.   
 
2.  How do you access films (#1553565, batch #0760031) that can’t be sent to FHC and have limited access at the FHL?    
 
Your help would be greatly appreciated.    Thanks so much.      Alice

Alice:

The first step is to find the passenger record for the ancestor from Spain. It is somewhat tricky especially because spellings in that era were so unstandardized and people changed the use of their names so much. Furthermore, many people came as servants of others and their license to go to the Indies was merely an appendage to someone else’s license providing very little information.

Then of course there are many who came with no license… probably debtors, Jews, etc. who were escaping Spain to the New World illegally. There is likely no record for them.

Anyhow, search the PARES database (you can use the link on the Nuestros Ranchos site) and try to look for your ancestor. I have found this Santelices which matches the time period and place but not the exact name:

Código de Referencia:
ES.41091.AGI/1.16404.42.3.293//CONTRATACION,5499,N.92
Titulo Nombre atribuido:
FRANCISCO GUTIERREZ DE HENESTROSA
Fecha Formación:
1756-12-23
Nivel de Descripción:
Unidad Documental Compuesta

ÁREA DE CONTENIDO Y ESTRUCTURA
Alcance y Contenido:
Expediente de información y licencia de pasajero a Indias de Francisco Gutiérrez de Henestrosa, factor, vecino de Cádiz, con su criado José de Santelices, a Nueva España.

Hello All, just a few thoughts on all of this, First of all , historically speaking, most of the ancient authors related the original inhabitants of Iberia (Spain) to the Berbers of North Africa. They spoke of the similarities in regards to temperment, tribal structure and physical appearence. The origin of the ancient Spaniard was rooted in North Africa, there are regions of Spain that are perceived as “Celtic” that have a high amount of the Berber marker M81,most notably in Galicia and Cantabria. When genetic researchers dated these samples the time frame predates the Moorish occupation. The Pasiegos of Cantabria are the most well known examle of this.

Secondly, Berbers are not predominately dark skinned, no darker than Spaniards in fact. There is a high frequency of red hair, especially among tribes like the Kabyle and Riffians, the “western European” Y DNA marker R1b is also not unknown among the Berber poupulations….I don’t like to reference Wikipedia but opposed to referring anyone to books, all you have to do is read the info they have there to better understand all of this.

My last point is to the “Celtic” ancestry of Spain. Spain,Great Britain and Ireland’s Celtic identity has come under scrutiny in the last 10 years or so. Most of the new research, Barry Cunliffe is a great example, speak of a “Atlantic” shared culture that has been “Celtisized” in material culture and language. The Basques are overwhelmingly R1b, they are not Celts, they speak a tounge that is non Indo European and was more than likely spoken over a larger area of Spain in antiquity. The Welsh and western Irish are in fact a closer genetic match to the Basques than most Spaniards are, none of these peoples are Celts. There was a minority of “true” Celtic peoples in Spain, these peoples came from Centeral Europe and Gaul (France) in the early Iron Age and imposed their langage and culture upon the very “mixed” populace they found in Iberia. Let me put it this way, If a Japanese man were to speak English, wear a baseball hat, blue jeans and a Bruce Springsteen t-shirt, it wouldn’t make him and “American”, he would only be displaying the material items and language of a different culture.

The desire as of late, for Hispanics to identify themselves as “Celtic” is, in my opinion, wrong. The ethic group most identified with the Celts, the Irish, is also misleading. We need to remember that even though we can see our ancesteral mother and father via DNA, we have genetic “aunts and uncles” whose ethnicity we cannot trace, and they could be anything, we are a combination of many things genticaly speaking…not just one.

To say, as some have, that most of the people of Los Altos are decended from “Celts” is laughable, I try to avoid being too heavy handed in my comments and posts, but that statement is truly ridiculous.

DNA and Genetic research are wonderful tools that help us to unlock who were are, but to twist them to “prove” an agenda is to propogate lies and the idea that one group is somehow superior to the other. Spaniards, as many Europeans, are a mixture of everything from Phonecian,Greek,Roman(another R1b group I might add),North African,Germanic,Slavic etc….

My 2 cents…..

Robert~

Robert,

It seems you have combined the statements of different people and grouped them as they had been made by a single person. Can you elaborate on which exact statement you are referring to? Then we can discuss what was meant and what information that statement was based on. I don’t see where anyone said “most of the people of Los Altos are descended from “Celts” or “Basques are” not “overwhelmingly R1b” I also don’t see where anyone is trying “to “prove” an agenda” and “propogate lies and the idea that one group is somehow superior to the other.” It seems you have done some word twisting of other people.
On the subject of Wikipedia – yes there can be information that is incorrect but I haven’t found anything a book disagrees with. The wiki pages do cite references just as any book does. There are probably more books out there with factually incorrect info than Wiki.

Armando

Hi ‘Mando,

My apologies, this is sort of an on going disscussion that gets resurrected once in a while, I didn’t want to direct my comments to anyone directly because it usually turns into an argument, and that is a complete waste of time.

Reading through the previous posts people mention the Berbers and Celts,DNA and physical appearence, which are old subject matter here, so I guess I was on “auto pilot” with my post. As I said it’s just my two cents, I’m sure many folks here have heard it before.

The short of it is that I believe some of the things that are posted here in regards to genetic research and ancestry are misleading or, flat out wrong. My worry is that old stereotypes and myths are perpertuated and then reintroduced to people as fact.

All of this subject matter is complicated,and I am the first to admit that I don’t have all the answers. My hope would be that people truly do some hard research and come to their conclusions not because they satisfy their ego but or a specific agenda….as history has shown us, all of that is very, very dangerous.

As for Wikipedia, It is a decent “quick” resource, but no website can provide all you need to know about a subject in one presentation…if that were the case why would we need schooling ? All I’m saying is that one should read books, research items that give you a healthy point counter point. Wiki is like Cliff Notes, if we really want to learn about a subject we have to pour some hard work into it…not just a quick glance at a website.

Regards,

Robert~

Hello Arturo,
 Thanks for your response.
In my original and later postings I mentioned that I researched PARES and had located Juan Santelices that fit the time frame and location–Santander, but I don’t know how to continue with verification as to whether I’m dealing with the correct person.   I’ve got my Juan Santelices’ parents–Tomas Santelices and Antonia Ybanes from his 1793 marriage in Queretero, but I don’t know where to go to in PARES or elsewhere to verify if I’m dealing with the right person in Spain.  Are baptismal or other documents accessable on PARES?   Also, where did you get the passenger lists?  I could not find the “Pasajeros a las Indias” from that website, I’m sure it’s called something else that I missed.    Thanks again, and I welcome any and all help from those that have researched and verified ancestors in Spain.    Alice       

— On Thu, 4/22/10, arturo.ramos2@gmail.com wrote:

From: arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European ancestry
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, April 22, 2010, 3:10 PM

Alice:

The first step is to find the passenger record for the ancestor from Spain.  It is somewhat tricky especially because spellings in that era were so unstandardized and people changed the use of their names so much.  Furthermore, many people came as servants of others and their license to go to the Indies was merely an appendage to someone else’s license providing very little information.

Then of course there are many who came with no license… probably debtors, Jews, etc. who were escaping Spain to the New World illegally.  There is likely no record for them.

Anyhow, search the PARES database (you can use the link on the Nuestros Ranchos site) and try to look for your ancestor.  I have found this Santelices which matches the time period and place but not the exact name:

Código de Referencia:
ES.41091.AGI/1.16404.42.3.293//CONTRATACION,5499,N.92     Titulo Nombre atribuido:
FRANCISCO GUTIERREZ DE HENESTROSA
Fecha Formación:
1756-12-23
Nivel de Descripción:
Unidad Documental Compuesta

ÁREA DE CONTENIDO Y ESTRUCTURA Alcance y Contenido:
Expediente de información y licencia de pasajero a Indias de Francisco Gutiérrez de Henestrosa, factor, vecino de Cádiz, con su criado José de Santelices, a Nueva España.

Hi Alice, I also have a record stating that my Caminos originated in Santander,

Spain. Maybe we could help each other. I havent been able to tackle on Spain,

because Im usually more focused on Los Altos, theres just so much to learn!!

I am fascinated. Maybe I can help you too, have you tried ordering microfilm

for Santander? The thing with Santander is that it kept changing names. And

borders changed. There are about 7 churches in Santander then there is the possibility

of our ancestors going to the main church in Burgos which is south. Also, with my French lines, Bourbon and the records read D’Ponte but its wrong the real spelling gramatically speaking should be DePonte who came from Auvernge? (I cant spell) Havent had

enough time, so little time so much to do, is my motto when it comes to

genealogy. Send me your dead end info and possibly the marriage in Queretaro, ill try to help as best as I can. I know many tricks when it comes to Pares, familysearch etc.

Daniel
mendezdelcamino@live.com

> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 07:48:45 -0700
> From: alicebb@att.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European ancestry
>
> With all this discussion of our European ancestry. How did all of you claiming European ancestry find documentation verifying it? I’d appreciate it if you’ve researched your family in Spain, France, etc. that you share how you did it. I’ve posted this request twice before and received no response. My Santelices line ends with a 1793 Queretero marriage entry stating that the groom Juan Fermin Santelices is from Santander, Castilla. I can’t believe that I’m the only one in our group in this situation. Please see previous entry. Thanks in advance for your help. Alice
>
>
>
>
> — On Thu, 4/15/10, Alice Blake wrote:
>
>
> From: Alice Blake
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Research Help
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 1:27 AM
>
>
> — On Fri, 4/9/10, Alice Blake wrote:
>
>
> From: Alice Blake
> Subject: Teaching Moment
> To: research@Nuestrosranchos.com
> Date: Friday, April 9, 2010, 5:29 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Group,
> I’ve come across two new situations that have become stumbling blocks to my reseach. I refer to them as stumbling blocks, not brick walls, because I’m sure that our more experienced members have dealt with them, and are willing to share and educate.
>
> 1. How do you research in Spain when you don’t find IGI films to view? I’ve studied the PARES site and have found posssibly useful information, but don’t know how to access birth, baptismal, or other records or documents to confirm that I’m dealing with the right person. I’m sure I need to acquire a new mindset, different from what I’ve done up to now with online IGI and FHC films, and I’m willing to learn.
>
> 2. How do you access films (#1553565, batch #0760031) that can’t be sent to FHC and have limited access at the FHL?
>
> Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much. Alice

My research has included verifying many of the statements that you just made. I have found lines that extend into north Africa.
We altenos descend from multiple lines of moors. Again I know that it is only a relatively small part of the genetic pool but it is an area of research like the jewish lines that I find a challenge.
When I was a kid I was confused by what I thought of as a funny looking catholic cross. It wasn’t until a couple of years That while researching one of our moor lines did I find out the history and significance of that cross and how we altenos descend from a person (a moor that converted) that was involved in this story. I now look at the cross with affection. It is also through this line that I found out that we descend through the last wave of moors that were intolerant and brought war to the iberian peninsula.
Again, I am not saying we descend mainly from Moors and jews. We descend mainly from the basques and germanic tribes that intermixed with the original Iberian popualation. I am researching all my lines.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

—–Original Message—–
From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:35:54
To:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry

Hello All, just a few thoughts on all of this, First of all , historically speaking, most of the ancient authors related the original inhabitants of Iberia (Spain) to the Berbers of North Africa. They spoke of the similarities in regards to temperment, tribal structure and physical appearence. The origin of the ancient Spaniard was rooted in North Africa, there are regions of Spain that are perceived as “Celtic” that have a high amount of the Berber marker M81,most notably in Galicia and Cantabria. When genetic researchers dated these samples the time frame predates the Moorish occupation. The Pasiegos of Cantabria are the most well known examle of this.

Secondly, Berbers are not predominately dark skinned, no darker than Spaniards in fact. There is a high frequency of red hair, especially among tribes like the Kabyle and Riffians, the “western European” Y DNA marker R1b is also not unknown among the Berber poupulations….I don’t like to reference Wikipedia but opposed to referring anyone to books, all you have to do is read the info they have there to better understand all of this.

My last point is to the “Celtic” ancestry of Spain. Spain,Great Britain and Ireland’s Celtic identity has come under scrutiny in the last 10 years or so. Most of the new research, Barry Cunliffe is a great example, speak of a “Atlantic” shared culture that has been “Celtisized” in material culture and language. The Basques are overwhelmingly R1b, they are not Celts, they speak a tounge that is non Indo European and was more than likely spoken over a larger area of Spain in antiquity. The Welsh and western Irish are in fact a closer genetic match to the Basques than most Spaniards are, none of these peoples are Celts. There was a minority of “true” Celtic peoples in Spain, these peoples came from Centeral Europe and Gaul (France) in the early Iron Age and imposed their langage and culture upon the very “mixed” populace they found in Iberia. Let me put it this way, If a Japanese man were to speak English, wear a baseball hat, blue jeans and a Bruce Springsteen t-shirt, it would
n’t make him and “American”, he would only be displaying the material items and language of a different culture.

The desire as of late, for Hispanics to identify themselves as “Celtic” is, in my opinion, wrong. The ethic group most identified with the Celts, the Irish, is also misleading. We need to remember that even though we can see our ancesteral mother and father via DNA, we have genetic “aunts and uncles” whose ethnicity we cannot trace, and they could be anything, we are a combination of many things genticaly speaking…not just one.

To say, as some have, that most of the people of Los Altos are decended from “Celts” is laughable, I try to avoid being too heavy handed in my comments and posts, but that statement is truly ridiculous.

DNA and Genetic research are wonderful tools that help us to unlock who were are, but to twist them to “prove” an agenda is to propogate lies and the idea that one group is somehow superior to the other. Spaniards, as many Europeans, are a mixture of everything from Phonecian,Greek,Roman(another R1b group I might add),North African,Germanic,Slavic etc….

My 2 cents…..

Robert~

Also, the European “look” in Mexico was not centered in Jalisco. I have in my lines people in Juarez and Zacatecas who I have traced back in those places to the early 1700s and in Zacatecas to the 1500s. Their descendants in the late 1800s and early 1900s were thought to be German, Russian and even Irish due to their ruddy complexions. blue eyes, and red or blonde hair. Some I know for sure were of Basque descent, such as my father’s Olague in Zacatecas. The others in Juarez had surnames such as Puertas and Trujillo.

Emilie

Port Orchard, WA

> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 05:18:23 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
>
> My research has included verifying many of the statements that you just made. I have found lines that extend into north Africa.
> We altenos descend from multiple lines of moors. Again I know that it is only a relatively small part of the genetic pool but it is an area of research like the jewish lines that I find a challenge.
> When I was a kid I was confused by what I thought of as a funny looking catholic cross. It wasn’t until a couple of years That while researching one of our moor lines did I find out the history and significance of that cross and how we altenos descend from a person (a moor that converted) that was involved in this story. I now look at the cross with affection. It is also through this line that I found out that we descend through the last wave of moors that were intolerant and brought war to the iberian peninsula.
> Again, I am not saying we descend mainly from Moors and jews. We descend mainly from the basques and germanic tribes that intermixed with the original Iberian popualation. I am researching all my lines.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:35:54
> To:
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
>
> Hello All, just a few thoughts on all of this, First of all , historically speaking, most of the ancient authors related the original inhabitants of Iberia (Spain) to the Berbers of North Africa. They spoke of the similarities in regards to temperment, tribal structure and physical appearence. The origin of the ancient Spaniard was rooted in North Africa, there are regions of Spain that are perceived as “Celtic” that have a high amount of the Berber marker M81,most notably in Galicia and Cantabria. When genetic researchers dated these samples the time frame predates the Moorish occupation. The Pasiegos of Cantabria are the most well known examle of this.
>
> Secondly, Berbers are not predominately dark skinned, no darker than Spaniards in fact. There is a high frequency of red hair, especially among tribes like the Kabyle and Riffians, the “western European” Y DNA marker R1b is also not unknown among the Berber poupulations….I don’t like to reference Wikipedia but opposed to referring anyone to books, all you have to do is read the info they have there to better understand all of this.
>
> My last point is to the “Celtic” ancestry of Spain. Spain,Great Britain and Ireland’s Celtic identity has come under scrutiny in the last 10 years or so. Most of the new research, Barry Cunliffe is a great example, speak of a “Atlantic” shared culture that has been “Celtisized” in material culture and language. The Basques are overwhelmingly R1b, they are not Celts, they speak a tounge that is non Indo European and was more than likely spoken over a larger area of Spain in antiquity. The Welsh and western Irish are in fact a closer genetic match to the Basques than most Spaniards are, none of these peoples are Celts. There was a minority of “true” Celtic peoples in Spain, these peoples came from Centeral Europe and Gaul (France) in the early Iron Age and imposed their langage and culture upon the very “mixed” populace they found in Iberia. Let me put it this way, If a Japanese man were to speak English, wear a baseball hat, blue jeans and a Bruce Springsteen t-shirt, it wou
ld
> n’t make him and “American”, he would only be displaying the material items and language of a different culture.
>
> The desire as of late, for Hispanics to identify themselves as “Celtic” is, in my opinion, wrong. The ethic group most identified with the Celts, the Irish, is also misleading. We need to remember that even though we can see our ancesteral mother and father via DNA, we have genetic “aunts and uncles” whose ethnicity we cannot trace, and they could be anything, we are a combination of many things genticaly speaking…not just one.
>
> To say, as some have, that most of the people of Los Altos are decended from “Celts” is laughable, I try to avoid being too heavy handed in my comments and posts, but that statement is truly ridiculous.
>
> DNA and Genetic research are wonderful tools that help us to unlock who were are, but to twist them to “prove” an agenda is to propogate lies and the idea that one group is somehow superior to the other. Spaniards, as many Europeans, are a mixture of everything from Phonecian,Greek,Roman(another R1b group I might add),North African,Germanic,Slavic etc….
>
> My 2 cents…..
>
> Robert~

I agree. My maternal grandmother was a “Lizarrga”, which according to a reference librarian that I meant in the Archivo General de Indias in Seville, is a common Basque name. My grandmother was born, as well as her parents, in Ixtlan del Rio, Nayarit. By the way, Nayarit by definition is considered part of Nueva Galicia, along with Aguascalientes, Colima, Jalisco, and Zacatecas.

Paul Gomez
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

—–Original Message—–
From: Emilie Garcia
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:08:58
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry

Also, the European “look” in Mexico was not centered in Jalisco. I have in my lines people in Juarez and Zacatecas who I have traced back in those places to the early 1700s and in Zacatecas to the 1500s. Their descendants in the late 1800s and early 1900s were thought to be German, Russian and even Irish due to their ruddy complexions. blue eyes, and red or blonde hair. Some I know for sure were of Basque descent, such as my father’s Olague in Zacatecas. The others in Juarez had surnames such as Puertas and Trujillo.

Emilie

Port Orchard, WA

> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 05:18:23 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
>
> My research has included verifying many of the statements that you just made. I have found lines that extend into north Africa.
> We altenos descend from multiple lines of moors. Again I know that it is only a relatively small part of the genetic pool but it is an area of research like the jewish lines that I find a challenge.
> When I was a kid I was confused by what I thought of as a funny looking catholic cross. It wasn’t until a couple of years That while researching one of our moor lines did I find out the history and significance of that cross and how we altenos descend from a person (a moor that converted) that was involved in this story. I now look at the cross with affection. It is also through this line that I found out that we descend through the last wave of moors that were intolerant and brought war to the iberian peninsula.
> Again, I am not saying we descend mainly from Moors and jews. We descend mainly from the basques and germanic tribes that intermixed with the original Iberian popualation. I am researching all my lines.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:35:54
> To:
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
>
> Hello All, just a few thoughts on all of this, First of all , historically speaking, most of the ancient authors related the original inhabitants of Iberia (Spain) to the Berbers of North Africa. They spoke of the similarities in regards to temperment, tribal structure and physical appearence. The origin of the ancient Spaniard was rooted in North Africa, there are regions of Spain that are perceived as “Celtic” that have a high amount of the Berber marker M81,most notably in Galicia and Cantabria. When genetic researchers dated these samples the time frame predates the Moorish occupation. The Pasiegos of Cantabria are the most well known examle of this.
>
> Secondly, Berbers are not predominately dark skinned, no darker than Spaniards in fact. There is a high frequency of red hair, especially among tribes like the Kabyle and Riffians, the “western European” Y DNA marker R1b is also not unknown among the Berber poupulations….I don’t like to reference Wikipedia but opposed to referring anyone to books, all you have to do is read the info they have there to better understand all of this.
>
> My last point is to the “Celtic” ancestry of Spain. Spain,Great Britain and Ireland’s Celtic identity has come under scrutiny in the last 10 years or so. Most of the new research, Barry Cunliffe is a great example, speak of a “Atlantic” shared culture that has been “Celtisized” in material culture and language. The Basques are overwhelmingly R1b, they are not Celts, they speak a tounge that is non Indo European and was more than likely spoken over a larger area of Spain in antiquity. The Welsh and western Irish are in fact a closer genetic match to the Basques than most Spaniards are, none of these peoples are Celts. There was a minority of “true” Celtic peoples in Spain, these peoples came from Centeral Europe and Gaul (France) in the early Iron Age and imposed their langage and culture upon the very “mixed” populace they found in Iberia. Let me put it this way, If a Japanese man were to speak English, wear a baseball hat, blue jeans and a Bruce Springsteen t-shirt, it wou
ld
> n’t make him and “American”, he would only be displaying the material items and language of a different culture.
>
> The desire as of late, for Hispanics to identify themselves as “Celtic” is, in my opinion, wrong. The ethic group most identified with the Celts, the Irish, is also misleading. We need to remember that even though we can see our ancesteral mother and father via DNA, we have genetic “aunts and uncles” whose ethnicity we cannot trace, and they could be anything, we are a combination of many things genticaly speaking…not just one.
>
> To say, as some have, that most of the people of Los Altos are decended from “Celts” is laughable, I try to avoid being too heavy handed in my comments and posts, but that statement is truly ridiculous.
>
> DNA and Genetic research are wonderful tools that help us to unlock who were are, but to twist them to “prove” an agenda is to propogate lies and the idea that one group is somehow superior to the other. Spaniards, as many Europeans, are a mixture of everything from Phonecian,Greek,Roman(another R1b group I might add),North African,Germanic,Slavic etc….
>
> My 2 cents…..
>
> Robert~

I disagreed with your phrasing of genetic uncles and aunts. People may not understand that you actually mean grandparents (ancestors) thaT are nor stricTly male line or strictlY female line. There is much confusion about DNA that needs clarification as you can see from many of these posts.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

—–Original Message—–
From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:35:54
To:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry

Hello All, just a few thoughts on all of this, First of all , historically speaking, most of the ancient authors related the original inhabitants of Iberia (Spain) to the Berbers of North Africa. They spoke of the similarities in regards to temperment, tribal structure and physical appearence. The origin of the ancient Spaniard was rooted in North Africa, there are regions of Spain that are perceived as “Celtic” that have a high amount of the Berber marker M81,most notably in Galicia and Cantabria. When genetic researchers dated these samples the time frame predates the Moorish occupation. The Pasiegos of Cantabria are the most well known examle of this.

Secondly, Berbers are not predominately dark skinned, no darker than Spaniards in fact. There is a high frequency of red hair, especially among tribes like the Kabyle and Riffians, the “western European” Y DNA marker R1b is also not unknown among the Berber poupulations….I don’t like to reference Wikipedia but opposed to referring anyone to books, all you have to do is read the info they have there to better understand all of this.

My last point is to the “Celtic” ancestry of Spain. Spain,Great Britain and Ireland’s Celtic identity has come under scrutiny in the last 10 years or so. Most of the new research, Barry Cunliffe is a great example, speak of a “Atlantic” shared culture that has been “Celtisized” in material culture and language. The Basques are overwhelmingly R1b, they are not Celts, they speak a tounge that is non Indo European and was more than likely spoken over a larger area of Spain in antiquity. The Welsh and western Irish are in fact a closer genetic match to the Basques than most Spaniards are, none of these peoples are Celts. There was a minority of “true” Celtic peoples in Spain, these peoples came from Centeral Europe and Gaul (France) in the early Iron Age and imposed their langage and culture upon the very “mixed” populace they found in Iberia. Let me put it this way, If a Japanese man were to speak English, wear a baseball hat, blue jeans and a Bruce Springsteen t-shirt, it would
n’t make him and “American”, he would only be displaying the material items and language of a different culture.

The desire as of late, for Hispanics to identify themselves as “Celtic” is, in my opinion, wrong. The ethic group most identified with the Celts, the Irish, is also misleading. We need to remember that even though we can see our ancesteral mother and father via DNA, we have genetic “aunts and uncles” whose ethnicity we cannot trace, and they could be anything, we are a combination of many things genticaly speaking…not just one.

To say, as some have, that most of the people of Los Altos are decended from “Celts” is laughable, I try to avoid being too heavy handed in my comments and posts, but that statement is truly ridiculous.

DNA and Genetic research are wonderful tools that help us to unlock who were are, but to twist them to “prove” an agenda is to propogate lies and the idea that one group is somehow superior to the other. Spaniards, as many Europeans, are a mixture of everything from Phonecian,Greek,Roman(another R1b group I might add),North African,Germanic,Slavic etc….

My 2 cents…..

Robert~

Hello Daniel,
Good to hear from you.  Yes, there’s too much to do in the time we have.  I have a question:  Do you make it a point to research every new generational pair of ancestors you come across or do you choose only a few lines?  For efficiency, I’ve thought about focusing on only researching the paternal lines of Onate, Santelices, and Balderrama, but every time a new name appears, I feel somewhat compelled to dig a little. 
 I was doing great with my Santelices until I came across Juan Fermin Nepomuceno Santelices from Santander.  At first I thought YEA! I found the Spain connection and now what???  He married Maria Luisa Sepulbeda (daughter of Jose/Jph Gregorio Zepulbeda and Ma Manuela Morales) on Feb 27, 1793 at Santiago Queretero, Que.   
 
Jose Gregorio’s father was Marcos Sepuldbeda and I wrote you that I found two Marcos Sepulbedas–one from Nochistlan, Zac and one from Cuidad Guzman, Jalisco.  I haven’t ordered the film, because I’ve just ordered 5!!! and it gets expensive.  Any help would be appreciated.    
 
Anyway, good luck with PARES, it’s really interesting, but I just don’t know how to verify that the people I’m reading about are mine.   I’d love to find a way to access Spanish baptismal records other than FHL, because they’re very limited and I don’t think my Santelices are listed.  Keep me posted when you find European gold. 
 Sincerely,  
Alice

— On Fri, 4/23/10, Daniel Mendez de Camino wrote:

From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European ancestry
To: “Patty Hoyos”
Date: Friday, April 23, 2010, 3:12 AM

Hi Alice, I also have a record stating that my Caminos originated in Santander,

Spain. Maybe we could help each other. I havent been able to tackle on Spain,

because Im usually more focused on Los Altos, theres just so much to learn!!

I am fascinated. Maybe I can help you too, have you tried ordering microfilm

for Santander? The thing with Santander is that it kept changing names. And

borders changed. There are about 7 churches in Santander then there is the possibility

of our ancestors going to the main church in Burgos which is south. Also, with my French lines, Bourbon and the records read D’Ponte but its wrong the real spelling gramatically speaking should be DePonte who came from Auvernge? (I cant spell) Havent had

enough time, so little time so much to do, is my motto when it comes to

genealogy. Send me your dead end info and possibly the marriage in Queretaro, ill try to help as best as I can. I know many tricks when it comes to Pares, familysearch etc.

Daniel
mendezdelcamino@live.com

> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 07:48:45 -0700
> From: alicebb@att.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European ancestry
>
> With all this discussion of our European ancestry.  How did all of you claiming European ancestry find documentation verifying it?  I’d appreciate it if you’ve researched your family in Spain, France, etc. that you share how you did it.   I’ve posted this request twice before and received no response.   My Santelices line ends with a 1793 Queretero marriage entry stating that the groom Juan Fermin Santelices is from Santander, Castilla.   I can’t believe that I’m the only one in our group in this situation.   Please see previous entry.  Thanks in advance for your help.        Alice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> — On Thu, 4/15/10, Alice Blake wrote:
>
>
> From: Alice Blake
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Research Help
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 1:27 AM
>
>
>     — On Fri, 4/9/10, Alice Blake wrote:
>
>
> From: Alice Blake
> Subject: Teaching Moment
> To: research@Nuestrosranchos.com
> Date: Friday, April 9, 2010, 5:29 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Group,
>  I’ve come across two new situations that have become stumbling blocks to my reseach.   I refer to them as stumbling blocks, not brick walls, because    I’m sure that our more experienced members have dealt with them, and are willing to share and educate.
> 
> 1.  How do you research in Spain when you don’t find IGI films to view?  I’ve studied the PARES site and have found posssibly useful information, but don’t know how to access birth, baptismal, or other records or documents to confirm that I’m dealing with the right person.  I’m sure I need to acquire a new mindset, different from what I’ve done up to now with online IGI and FHC films, and I’m willing to learn.   
> 
> 2.  How do you access films (#1553565, batch #0760031) that can’t be sent to FHC and have limited access at the FHL?   
> 
> Your help would be greatly appreciated.    Thanks so much.      Alice

I have a friend with the name Lazarraga, his family is from La Barca insouthern Los Altos, he said the name isnt too common in Los Altos,obviously related to other Lizarragas
Daniel

> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:49:49 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
>
> I agree. My maternal grandmother was a “Lizarrga”, which according to a reference librarian that I meant in the Archivo General de Indias in Seville, is a common Basque name. My grandmother was born, as well as her parents, in Ixtlan del Rio, Nayarit. By the way, Nayarit by definition is considered part of Nueva Galicia, along with Aguascalientes, Colima, Jalisco, and Zacatecas.
>
> Paul Gomez
> Rancho Cucamonga, CA
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Emilie Garcia
> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:08:58
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
>
>
> Also, the European “look” in Mexico was not centered in Jalisco. I have in my lines people in Juarez and Zacatecas who I have traced back in those places to the early 1700s and in Zacatecas to the 1500s. Their descendants in the late 1800s and early 1900s were thought to be German, Russian and even Irish due to their ruddy complexions. blue eyes, and red or blonde hair. Some I know for sure were of Basque descent, such as my father’s Olague in Zacatecas. The others in Juarez had surnames such as Puertas and Trujillo.
>
>
>
> Emilie
>
> Port Orchard, WA
>
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
>> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 05:18:23 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
>>
>> My research has included verifying many of the statements that you just made. I have found lines that extend into north Africa.
>> We altenos descend from multiple lines of moors. Again I know that it is only a relatively small part of the genetic pool but it is an area of research like the jewish lines that I find a challenge.
>> When I was a kid I was confused by what I thought of as a funny looking catholic cross. It wasn’t until a couple of years That while researching one of our moor lines did I find out the history and significance of that cross and how we altenos descend from a person (a moor that converted) that was involved in this story. I now look at the cross with affection. It is also through this line that I found out that we descend through the last wave of moors that were intolerant and brought war to the iberian peninsula.
>> Again, I am not saying we descend mainly from Moors and jews. We descend mainly from the basques and germanic tribes that intermixed with the original Iberian popualation. I am researching all my lines.
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> —–Original Message—–
>> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
>> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:35:54
>> To:
>> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
>>
>> Hello All, just a few thoughts on all of this, First of all , historically speaking, most of the ancient authors related the original inhabitants of Iberia (Spain) to the Berbers of North Africa. They spoke of the similarities in regards to temperment, tribal structure and physical appearence. The origin of the ancient Spaniard was rooted in North Africa, there are regions of Spain that are perceived as “Celtic” that have a high amount of the Berber marker M81,most notably in Galicia and Cantabria. When genetic researchers dated these samples the time frame predates the Moorish occupation. The Pasiegos of Cantabria are the most well known examle of this.
>>
>> Secondly, Berbers are not predominately dark skinned, no darker than Spaniards in fact. There is a high frequency of red hair, especially among tribes like the Kabyle and Riffians, the “western European” Y DNA marker R1b is also not unknown among the Berber poupulations….I don’t like to reference Wikipedia but opposed to referring anyone to books, all you have to do is read the info they have there to better understand all of this.
>>
>> My last point is to the “Celtic” ancestry of Spain. Spain,Great Britain and Ireland’s Celtic identity has come under scrutiny in the last 10 years or so. Most of the new research, Barry Cunliffe is a great example, speak of a “Atlantic” shared culture that has been “Celtisized” in material culture and language. The Basques are overwhelmingly R1b, they are not Celts, they speak a tounge that is non Indo European and was more than likely spoken over a larger area of Spain in antiquity. The Welsh and western Irish are in fact a closer genetic match to the Basques than most Spaniards are, none of these peoples are Celts. There was a minority of “true” Celtic peoples in Spain, these peoples came from Centeral Europe and Gaul (France) in the early Iron Age and imposed their langage and culture upon the very “mixed” populace they found in Iberia. Let me put it this way, If a Japanese man were to speak English, wear a baseball hat, blue jeans and a Bruce Springsteen t-shirt, it wo
u
> ld
>> n’t make him and “American”, he would only be displaying the material items and language of a different culture.
>>
>> The desire as of late, for Hispanics to identify themselves as “Celtic” is, in my opinion, wrong. The ethic group most identified with the Celts, the Irish, is also misleading. We need to remember that even though we can see our ancesteral mother and father via DNA, we have genetic “aunts and uncles” whose ethnicity we cannot trace, and they could be anything, we are a combination of many things genticaly speaking…not just one.
>>
>> To say, as some have, that most of the people of Los Altos are decended from “Celts” is laughable, I try to avoid being too heavy handed in my comments and posts, but that statement is truly ridiculous.
>>
>> DNA and Genetic research are wonderful tools that help us to unlock who were are, but to twist them to “prove” an agenda is to propogate lies and the idea that one group is somehow superior to the other. Spaniards, as many Europeans, are a mixture of everything from Phonecian,Greek,Roman(another R1b group I might add),North African,Germanic,Slavic etc….
>>
>> My 2 cents…..
>>
>> Robert~

Hello Paul and Daniel,

Technically Lizarraga and Lazarraga are two different surnames. But as we
know spellings can change and at times there are errors.
LIZAR, Lizarra = Estella. El fresno. Aga = Lugar LIZARRAGA =
Lissarrague = Lugar de fresnos.
LAZA = Suelto, anchuroso. LAZAGA = Lugar anchuroso. LAZARRAGA = Lugar
tranquilo.
http://usuarios.multimania.es/Javier_Alonso/apellidos%20vascos/Eusko-Abizenak/apellidos-l.htm

Hello Emilie,

I agree that güeros aren’t only in Jalisco and nobody insinuated it.
However, a lot of people think that Jalisco has the most. That may be true
especially since Jalisco is the 4th most populous state in Mexico and
Guadalajara is the 2nd most populous city in Mexico
http://cuentame.inegi.gob.mx/monografias/informacion/jal/poblacion/default.aspx?tema=me&e=14
Since I had looked up Lizarraga I also looked up Olague for you – OLA =
Ferrería, fábrica, cabaña. OLAGÜE = Sitio de la ferrería. Also listed
is OLAGÜE
= parte alta del campo de avenas.
http://usuarios.multimania.es/Javier_Alonso/apellidos%20vascos/Eusko-Abizenak/apellidos-o.htm

Hello Robert,

In an attempt to clarify a few things, I said that the R1b DNA marker is
prevalent in Spain and that the Basques have it the most. Based on DNA the
people of the British Isles, especially the Irish, descend from the Basque
people of Spain. R1b is present in Irish 90-98% and Basques 90-95%, The
migration is estimated to have taken place 8,000 years ago and nobody knows
what they called themselves back then. I never called them Celts though. We
are a combination of many things but if a güero asks why he is so there are
probablities and I mentioned the most probable and I mentioned that the
least probable is a myth with a link explaining why it is a myth. Basically
I was explaining we don’t have to have French blood to be güero and is the
least likely cause. The message was misinterpreted and other probabilities
were brought up as if I didn’t think they existed or that I was twisting one
thing into another.

Armando

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Daniel Mendez de Camino wrote:

>
> I have a friend with the name Lazarraga, his family is from La Barca
> insouthern Los Altos, he said the name isnt too common in Los
> Altos,obviously related to other Lizarragas
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
> > Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:49:49 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
> >
> > I agree. My maternal grandmother was a “Lizarrga”, which according to a
> reference librarian that I meant in the Archivo General de Indias in
> Seville, is a common Basque name. My grandmother was born, as well as her
> parents, in Ixtlan del Rio, Nayarit. By the way, Nayarit by definition is
> considered part of Nueva Galicia, along with Aguascalientes, Colima,
> Jalisco, and Zacatecas.
> >
> > Paul Gomez
> > Rancho Cucamonga, CA
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: Emilie Garcia
> > Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:08:58
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
> >
> >
> > Also, the European “look” in Mexico was not centered in Jalisco. I have
> in my lines people in Juarez and Zacatecas who I have traced back in those
> places to the early 1700s and in Zacatecas to the 1500s. Their descendants
> in the late 1800s and early 1900s were thought to be German, Russian and
> even Irish due to their ruddy complexions. blue eyes, and red or blonde
> hair. Some I know for sure were of Basque descent, such as my father’s
> Olague in Zacatecas. The others in Juarez had surnames such as Puertas and
> Trujillo.
> >
> >
> >
> > Emilie
> >
> > Port Orchard, WA
> >
> >> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> >> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> >> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 05:18:23 +0000
> >> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
> >>
> >> My research has included verifying many of the statements that you just
> made. I have found lines that extend into north Africa.
> >> We altenos descend from multiple lines of moors. Again I know that it is
> only a relatively small part of the genetic pool but it is an area of
> research like the jewish lines that I find a challenge.
> >> When I was a kid I was confused by what I thought of as a funny looking
> catholic cross. It wasn’t until a couple of years That while researching one
> of our moor lines did I find out the history and significance of that cross
> and how we altenos descend from a person (a moor that converted) that was
> involved in this story. I now look at the cross with affection. It is also
> through this line that I found out that we descend through the last wave of
> moors that were intolerant and brought war to the iberian peninsula.
> >> Again, I am not saying we descend mainly from Moors and jews. We descend
> mainly from the basques and germanic tribes that intermixed with the
> original Iberian popualation. I am researching all my lines.
> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >>
> >> —–Original Message—–
> >> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> >> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:35:54
> >> To:
> >> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] European Ancestry
> >>
> >> Hello All, just a few thoughts on all of this, First of all ,
> historically speaking, most of the ancient authors related the original
> inhabitants of Iberia (Spain) to the Berbers of North Africa. They spoke of
> the similarities in regards to temperment, tribal structure and physical
> appearence. The origin of the ancient Spaniard was rooted in North Africa,
> there are regions of Spain that are perceived as “Celtic” that have a high
> amount of the Berber marker M81,most notably in Galicia and Cantabria. When
> genetic researchers dated these samples the time frame predates the Moorish
> occupation. The Pasiegos of Cantabria are the most well known examle of
> this.
> >>
> >> Secondly, Berbers are not predominately dark skinned, no darker than
> Spaniards in fact. There is a high frequency of red hair, especially among
> tribes like the Kabyle and Riffians, the “western European” Y DNA marker R1b
> is also not unknown among the Berber poupulations….I don’t like to
> reference Wikipedia but opposed to referring anyone to books, all you have
> to do is read the info they have there to better understand all of this.
> >>
> >> My last point is to the “Celtic” ancestry of Spain. Spain,Great Britain
> and Ireland’s Celtic identity has come under scrutiny in the last 10 years
> or so. Most of the new research, Barry Cunliffe is a great example, speak of
> a “Atlantic” shared culture that has been “Celtisized” in material culture
> and language. The Basques are overwhelmingly R1b, they are not Celts, they
> speak a tounge that is non Indo European and was more than likely spoken
> over a larger area of Spain in antiquity. The Welsh and western Irish are in
> fact a closer genetic match to the Basques than most Spaniards are, none of
> these peoples are Celts. There was a minority of “true” Celtic peoples in
> Spain, these peoples came from Centeral Europe and Gaul (France) in the
> early Iron Age and imposed their langage and culture upon the very “mixed”
> populace they found in Iberia. Let me put it this way, If a Japanese man
> were to speak English, wear a baseball hat, blue jeans and a Bruce
> Springsteen t-shirt, it wo
> u
> > ld
> >> n’t make him and “American”, he would only be displaying the material
> items and language of a different culture.
> >>
> >> The desire as of late, for Hispanics to identify themselves as “Celtic”
> is, in my opinion, wrong. The ethic group most identified with the Celts,
> the Irish, is also misleading. We need to remember that even though we can
> see our ancesteral mother and father via DNA, we have genetic “aunts and
> uncles” whose ethnicity we cannot trace, and they could be anything, we are
> a combination of many things genticaly speaking…not just one.
> >>
> >> To say, as some have, that most of the people of Los Altos are decended
> from “Celts” is laughable, I try to avoid being too heavy handed in my
> comments and posts, but that statement is truly ridiculous.
> >>
> >> DNA and Genetic research are wonderful tools that help us to unlock who
> were are, but to twist them to “prove” an agenda is to propogate lies and
> the idea that one group is somehow superior to the other. Spaniards, as many
> Europeans, are a mixture of everything from Phonecian,Greek,Roman(another
> R1b group I might add),North African,Germanic,Slavic etc….
> >>
> >> My 2 cents…..
> >>
> >> Robert~
> >> — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> >> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >>
> >> To post, send email to:
> >> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >> To change your subscription, log on to:
> >> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >> — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> >> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >>
> >> To post, send email to:
> >> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >> To change your subscription, log on to:
> >> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
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