Thanks Rose, this helps alot I know know Bernabe had a sister Maria Concepcion Montanes. Never knew who she was until now. And Bernabe’s parents, many thanks. Do you have more info on his second wife? Is Juan Montanes son of Juan Montanes I born in 1575 and Sebastiana Dias? Many Thanks. -Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Rose, a million thank you’s for the information and resources! Thanks to you and Daniel I can take my lineage a few steps further!
Rudy Munoz – Phoenix, AZ
—- rosehardy@hotmail.com wrote:
> Hello Daniel and Rudy,
>
> This is the information that I have from my book regarding Bernabe Montanez:
>
> Montanez, Barnabe
> The son of Juan Montanez and Maria de Sotomayor. He was baptized 2 August 1638 in Ojuelos, Jalisco. He married his first wife, Isabel Carrillo, the daughter of Diego Carrillo and Maria Lopes on 14 June 1659 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. He married his second wife, Isabel Martin de Chavez Perez.
>
> Most of this information came from Mary Lou Montagna’s work on Juan Montanez, “The Genealogy of Juan Montanez and his Descendants in Aguascalientes, Jalisco, San Luis Potosi and Zacatecas”, Sharr Journal, Vol IV 1998
>
> I too have Simon Chavez and his wife Juana Padilla.
>
> Rose Hardy
> Fresno
>
According to Mary Lou’s work, Juan Montanez was married twice. Juan was from “Reyno de la Galicia natural de la ciudad de Salamanca, Reynos de Castilla, hijo legitimo de Juan Montantes y Ana Bisente..”
His first wife was Sebastiana Diaz, daughter of Miguel Diaz from Guanajuato and his second wife was Maria Medel. Sebastiana’s paternal grandparents were Martin Alonso and Juana Sanchez. Her maternal grandparents were Pedro Medel, vecino of Lagos and Ana Dominguez.
Juan’s second wife was Maria de Sotomayor of Andres de Martin y Maria de las Ruelas of Teocaltiche. This marriage per the Pinos register was on 14 April 1630. Maria de Sotomayor is also known as Maria de las Ruelas.
Hope this helps….Mary Lou did some great work on this line….
Rose
Jaime,
I found a marriage record for Joseph Yscareño and María Fabiana García.
Could this be the one you’re looking for? I’ve seen the surname Tiscareño
spelled Yscareño before. These two were married in Aguascalientes 28 Dec
1712, both of unknown parents. He was mestizo and she was española, both
born and raised in Aguascalientes. This is not the same Joseph married to
María de Huerta, as she was still alive in 1712. You can see the marriage
record online under Matrimonios 1703-1721, Image 134/214, Foja 132.
Bill Figueroa
Bill,
Yesterday, I tried looking for the marriage of Joseph in the timeframe you suggested, and could not found anything. I moved back in time, just to see if it could be another Joseph. About an hour ago I found the same record you mentioned (thanks for searching). I also found the ‘informacion matriomonial (Dec 24, 1712), with the hope of finding additional clues about their origin. Witnesses were Juan Luebano son of Bernabe Luebano y Tomasa de los Reyes, Nicolas Macias son of Nicolas Macias and Juana de Anda, and Tomas Macias hijo de Pedro Macias and Juana de Esparza. Joseph is identified as a servant of Capitan Salvador Escamilla.
Because of the timeline and names, I am sure these is the couple I was looking for. I guess, that is all we will ever know about their past.
Thanks again
Jaime Alvarado
Hola Emilie:
En Mexico ,Tengo entendido que el 30 de Julio ,que es presisamente el dia de hoy se selebra el dia de San Cristobal .Conosco varias personas de nombre Cristobal y hoy es su cumple años.
Saludos
Jose Luis Felix
Perris CA.
> From: auntyemfaustus@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:14:57 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint Saint’s day Names
>
> When is St. Christopher’s saint day? My middle name is Christina, and since I was born on April 13 (in the 1930s), and it was near Easter, so I thought I was named for Christ. Every few decades my birthday falls on Easter.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
> —– Original Message —–
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 1:01 PM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint Saint’s day Names
>
>
> My father was born on Jan.6th, 1934. His baptismal records show his name as “Jose Reyes” which was latter changed. My uncle Santiago is the only one who kept his “saint” name. I also have a saint name, my middle name is “Christopher”…poor Saint Christopher is no longer recoginzed as a saint, but I love him anyway…
Daniel,
The information linking Petronila de Moctezuma to Hernán Cortés and
Moctezuma II is pure fiction, without proof or solid basis for it. Yet when
published online it appears true to unsuspecting users. I have looked at
this information for several years from many different angles, always trying
to prove or disprove it. To this effect I have searched in historical
archives in Aguascalientes and Guadalajara, read books about Moctezuma and
searched online wherever I could. So far, this information has eluded me
and many other people. In 2005, Mr John Inclán published a genealogy report
that included Petronila de Moctezuma as a daughter of Leonor de Valderrama
CORTES de Moctezuma and Diego Arias de Sotelo. Apparently, Mr. Inclan
confused two Leonores ie. the illegitimate daughter of Isabel de Moctezuma
and Hernán Cortés, who married Juan de Tolosa; and Isabel’s half sister
Mariana, who appears in some documents as Leonor. This Mariana/Leonor de
Moctezuma married Christobal de Valderrama, Conquistador. Their daughter
Leonor de Valderrama y Moctezuma is the one who married Diego Arias de
Sotelo. She was NOT a descendant of Hernán Cortés.
I could go on and on, but I feel that this subject has been beaten to death.
Just be careful with the information you put in your records. Not everything
that is printed is necessarily correct.
Bill Figueroa
—– Original Message —–
From: “Daniel Méndez del Camino”
To: “Patty Hoyos”
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames in the 1600s and early 1700
Hi Bill, I too have the Moctezuma connection but I dont think Petronila was
native American, yes of descent she can have a degree, but (depending which
genealogy you follow) Petronila (in the Casta sense ) she would be
Castiza or española. Here is how I have the genealogy, I’ve seen all crazy
stuff, but just stick to this one Ill also include what casta they are to
show my point.
Moctezuma II (indígena)
Isabel de Moctezuma (indígena) = Hernán Cortés (español)
Leonor de Moctezuma (mestiza) = Diego Arias de Sotelo (español)
Petronila de Moctezuma (castiza) = Martín Navarro de Gabay (español)
Ana Francisca Navarro de Gabay (española) = Lope Ruiz, Señor de Esparza
(español)
Now by the time you get to the Esparza both parents are ‘Spaniard’ (to some
sense) Ana Franca. would have looked like any regular european woman.
I, like you, dont believe there is such thing as a pure race. Just like
whites in United States (according to a study) many have black ancestors
especially in the south) whites in Mexico have at least one ancestor who is
of different race. I know I have about 3 native American lines which all end
sadly, and one line who is black. All in the 1500s-1600s. I thik the
Moctezuma is a perfect example of reaching the highest caste. Through
research, i can say most of Moctezuma’s descendants married Spaniards and
even went to Spain. Down the line they stay Spanish both in Mexico and
Spain. -Daniel Camino
Bill,
Thank you so much for addressing this issue. I too am a descendant of
Petrolina de Moctezuma and have come to the same conclusion you have about
the confusion between the two Leonores. It is all too easy to mislead people
when we are not careful with our facts. Without solid evidence it is all
speculation or conjecture and it should be stated as such.
Thankyou,
-Angelina-
Angelina,
That’s so true. To me, genealogy is an exact science, just like math.
There should be one correct answer, without ambiguity of any kind. I’m
still trying to solve this puzzle and have some leads I will follow in the
next few months, but for the time being I have Petronila only as a
descendant of Moctezuma II.
Regards,
Bill
—– Original Message —–
From: “Angelina Markle”
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames in the 1600s and early 1700
Bill,
Thank you so much for addressing this issue. I too am a descendant of
Petronila de Moctezuma and have come to the same conclusion you have about
the confusion between the two Leonores. It is all too easy to mislead people
when we are not careful with our facts. Without solid evidence it is all
speculation or conjecture and it should be stated as such.
Thank you,
-Angelina-
Bill,
Are you aware of the existence of any document where Petronilla is identified as descendant of Moctezuma? I have the recollection that there is some document that states referring to her with something such as: “known to be grand daughter of Moctezuma”, but I have not been able to track the source.
Jaime Alvarado
Angelina and Bill
I agree with you both….I have for many years have looked for documentation linking Petrolina to Cortes. Like Bill, I too have spent many hours reading books and genealogy lines with no PROOF. So I have not added Cortes to my line….but I know many people who have because they ASSUME the vague information they read from others is correct. Genealogy at times is not easy as some people think….it takes time (years and years). Nothing is handed on a silver platter…..for the most part.
Which reminds me of a situation I observed one night. I was at a family history center when a woman came in and was very upset that she had to do research and dig for her ancestry….she thought the history centers had all the answers she needed…..she was quite put out by this.
Rose
Jaime,
The only documentation that I know exists is mentioned in a submission to
the LDS by mexican genealogist Jaime Holcombe. Apparently, he had a
document in which Lope Ruiz de Esparza stated that “the mother of his wife
was the granddaughter of the last Aztec emperor, Moctezuma”. He mentioned
that this document had been given to him by Lic. Luis López Martínez. It is
my understanding that he gave that document to Dr. Mariano González-Leal to
include in his book(s) “Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia”. As you
know, Mr. González-Leal has published two volumes of his book and will soon
release several others. I’ve tried to contact him several times in the past
but got no reply to my inquiries. Let’s hope that the Ruiz de Esparza
genealogy is included in one of his remaining books.
Bill Figueroa
—– Original Message —–
From: “Jaime R. Alvarado”
To:
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames in the 1600s and early 1700
Bill,
Are you aware of the existence of any document where Petronilla is
identified as descendant of Moctezuma? I have the recollection that there is
some document that states referring to her with something such as: “known to
be grand daughter of Moctezuma”, but I have not been able to track the
source.
Jaime Alvarado
Gracias, Jose Luis
Emilie
—– Original Message —–
From: JOSE FELIX
To: research@ nuestros ranchos.com
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint Saint’s day Names
Hola Emilie:
En Mexico ,Tengo entendido que el 30 de Julio ,que es presisamente el dia de hoy se selebra el dia de San Cristobal .Conosco varias personas de nombre Cristobal y hoy es su cumple años.
Saludos
Jose Luis Felix
Perris CA.
> From: auntyemfaustus@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:14:57 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint Saint’s day Names
>
> When is St. Christopher’s saint day? My middle name is Christina, and since I was born on April 13 (in the 1930s), and it was near Easter, so I thought I was named for Christ. Every few decades my birthday falls on Easter.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
> —– Original Message —–
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com<mailto:gandalf3.1@netzero.com<mailto:gandalf3.1@netzero.com>
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org<mailto:research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org<mailto:research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 1:01 PM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint Saint’s day Names
>
>
> My father was born on Jan.6th, 1934. His baptismal records show his name as “Jose Reyes” which was latter changed. My uncle Santiago is the only one who kept his “saint” name. I also have a saint name, my middle name is “Christopher”…poor Saint Christopher is no longer recoginzed as a saint, but I love him anyway…
Bill,
Thanks for the info regarding Petronila Moctezuma. As with many members of NR originating in Aguas, the more I dig, the more connections I find to her. Specifically, my paternal grandmother was connected to Petronila via her paternal grandfather (to Maria Gabai) and via her maternal grandparents (both to Francisca Gabai through the very prolific Tiscarenos and Ruiz de Esparzas). Thus establishing the connection to Moctezuma II, could serve several purposes. The first and perhaps the obvious, to connect with ‘royalty’. It makes the least and nice conversation piece. The other, and in my mind by far more relevant, is to help re-write Mexico’s history by debunking the myth that with the arrival of the Spaniards, the new order was exclusively the domain of the conquistadors (with exception of a few Tlaxcaltecan nobles), a point eloquently made in the introduction of Chipman’s book on Moctezuma’s children. My visits as a child to my father’s birthplace of Aguascalientes was filled
with stories, told by my great aunts and uncles, about their ancestors as founders of the city. However, it was a one-sided story that that related to their ‘pure’ Spanish ancestry. Research of my family’s history tells a different story. Yes, there were Spaniards and Basque among their ancestors, but also Amerindian and black. Quite a melting pot! Through Aguas, I emerge as a mestizo but more importantly as “Citizen of the World”, proud of all that walked before me and hoping that my children and their children embrace all human beings as equal.
Jaime Alvarado
Two links where you can verify your saint’s celebration.
http://www.ewtn.com/spanish/saints/
http://es.catholic.net/santoral/
Best Regards,
Juan José
— On Fri, 7/31/09, Emilie Garcia wrote:
From: Emilie Garcia
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint Saint’s day Names
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:03 AM
Gracias, Jose Luis
Emilie
—– Original Message —–
From: JOSE FELIX
To: research@ nuestros ranchos.com
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint Saint’s day Names
Hola Emilie:
En Mexico ,Tengo entendido que el 30 de Julio ,que es presisamente el dia de hoy se selebra el dia de San Cristobal .Conosco varias personas de nombre Cristobal y hoy es su cumple años.
Saludos
Jose Luis Felix
Perris CA.
> From: auntyemfaustus@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:14:57 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint Saint’s day Names
>
> When is St. Christopher’s saint day? My middle name is Christina, and since I was born on April 13 (in the 1930s), and it was near Easter, so I thought I was named for Christ. Every few decades my birthday falls on Easter.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
> —– Original Message —–
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com<mailto:gandalf3.1@netzero.com<mailto:gandalf3.1@netzero.com>
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org<mailto:research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org<mailto:research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 1:01 PM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Saint Saint’s day Names
>
>
> My father was born on Jan.6th, 1934. His baptismal records show his name as “Jose Reyes” which was latter changed. My uncle Santiago is the only one who kept his “saint” name. I also have a saint name, my middle name is “Christopher”…poor Saint Christopher is no longer recoginzed as a saint, but I love him anyway…
> — — — — — — — — — — — — —
> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>
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>
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