I still can’t open the link
—–Original Message—–
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:27 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census
Would there be someone who would volunteer to extract out (and perhaps even transliterate into modern Spanish) the census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families who migrated to the Gran Chichimeca?
Maria,
I just sent you the .pdf file to your e-mail address. It will take a while to load unless you have a fast connection. Plus your computer needs to be able to open .pdf files.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Maria Cortes
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census
I still can’t open the link
Got it thanks
—–Original Message—–
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Emilie Garcia
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:34 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census
Maria,
I just sent you the .pdf file to your e-mail address. It will take a while to load unless you have a fast connection. Plus your computer needs to be able to open .pdf files.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Maria Cortes
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census
I still can’t open the link
TRASLATION TO englisH down
COLECCION DE DOCUMENTOS PARA LA HISTORIA DE SAN LUIS POTOSI
CUENTA POR SUS NOMBRES (CENSO) DE LOS INDIOS DE TLAXCAL QUE VINIERO A POBLAR ENTRE LOS CHICHIMECAS
EN EL RIO DE SAN JUAN (HOY SAN JUAN DEL RIO QUERETARO)EL 6 DE JULIO DE 1591, AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA VILLABICENCIO, TENIENTE DE CAPITAN GENERAL PARA LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONNES DE CHICHIMECAS DEL EXCELENTISIMO SEÑOR DON LUIS DE VELASCO, CABALLERO DE LA ORDEN DE SANTIAGO, VIRREY, GOBERNADOR, CAPITAN GENERAL DE ESTA NUEVA ESPAÑA, PRESIDENTE DE LA REAL AUDIENCIA… ANTE MI EL NOTARIO, DIJO:
QUE EL GOBERNADOR, ALCALDES Y PRINCIPALES (CACIQUES) DE LA CIUDAD DE TLAXCALA OFRECIERON AL SEÑOR VIRREY 400 INDIOS CASADOS VECINOS Y ORIGINARIOS DE DICHA CIUDAD(TLAXCALA), PARA CON ELLOS HACER (FUNDAR) DICHAS POBLACIONES (LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONES DE LOS CHICHIMECAS), LOS CUALES SALIERON Y SE DIVIDIERON EN 4 “CUADRILLAS DE CARROS”? CON SUS MUJERES E HIJOS EN DICHA CIUDAD (SAN JUAN DEL RIO)DONDE HABIAN DE ENTREGARSE (PONERSE A LAS ORDENES)AL TENIENTE(AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA). ALGUNOS “JUSTOS RESPETOS”(RESPETADOS) NO SE ENTREGARON(PONERSE A LAS ORDENES).
POR QUE ES JUSTO, PARA QUE SE SEPA Y SE ENTIENDA, SE AVERIGÜE (INVESTIGUE)SI SE ENTREGARON LOS 400 INDIOS Y SI TODOS VIENEN EN EL CONTINGENTE…(PARA ESO) MANDÓ HACER LA CUENTA DE TODOS ELLOS POR SUS NOMBRES, CON SUS MUJERES E HIJOS, DE SUS BARRIOS, PARCIALIDADES (ORIGEN Y VECINDAD)Y A QUIE TRAÍN POR CAPITAN, PARA QUE EN TODO TIENPO CONSTE LA VERDAD. SE HIZO LA CUENTA DE LA MANERA SIGUIENTE:
…..
(ENSEGUIDA VIENE LA LISTA DE LOS NOMBRES DE LOS INDIOS Y EN QUE “CARRO”(CONTINGENTE) VENIAN…
ALGUIEN MAS QUE COLABORE?
_________________________________________________________________________________________
eN ESPAÑOL ARRIBA
(THIS IS AN AUTOMATIC TRALATION)
COLLECTION OF DOCUMENTS FOR THE HISTORY OF SAN LUIS POTOSI
ACCOUNT FOR THEIR NAMES (census) of the Indians of Tlaxcala that cometh to populate BETWEEN CHICHIMECAS
IN RIO DE SAN JUAN (TODAY SAN JUAN DEL RIO QUERETARO) ON 6 JULY 1591, AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA VILLABICENCIO, lieutenant OF captain-general for the “New Settlement of CHICHIMECAS OF HIS EXCELLENCY LUIS DE VELASCO, Knight of the Order of Santiago, Viceroy, Governor, CAPTAIN GENERAL OF THIS NEW SPAIN, PRESIDENT OF THE HEARING REAL… TO ME THE NOTARY, SAID:
THE GOVERNOR, MAYORS AND PRINCIPAL (Chief) of the city of Tlaxcala offer the Lord Viceroy 400 Indians MARRIED NEIGHBORS AND ORIGIN OF SAID CITY (ZONE), FOR THEM TO DO (FOUND) THESE Settlement (THE NEW Settlement OF CHICHIMECAS) and they came up and divided into 4 “CUADRILLAS WAGON? OF WOMEN AND THEIR CHILDREN IN SAID CITY (SAN JUAN DEL RIO) WHERE were to be released (himself at the orders) to Lieutenant (AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA). SOME “decent respect (respect) is not given (himself at the orders).
WHY IS JUST, TO BE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND, HE LEARN (searching) IF THE 400 GIVE INDIANS AND IF ALL COME IN THE QUOTA … (With this intention) He (lieutenant VILLABICENCIO)mandates ACCOUNT FOR YOUR NAME ALL OF THEM WITH their wives and children, its neighborhoods, partial (ORIGIN AND NEIGHBORHOOD) AND QUIE Train by captain, allways EVIDENCED THROUGHOUT THE TRUTH. ACCOUNT WAS MADE AS FOLLOWS:
…..
(next COMES THE LIST OF NAMES AND THAT THE INDIANS “CART”, come
Here is a slightly different English translation …. hope it makes sense
… original is below
Collection of documents of the history of San Luis Potosi.
Recorded by names (census) of the Tlaxcal Indians that came to settle with
the Chichimecas.
In El Rio de San Juan (today San Juan del rio Queretaro) on the 6th of July
of 1561, Agustin de Hinojosa Villabicencio, Lieutenant of Captain-General
for the new settlement of Chichimecas of his Excellency Luis de Velasco,
Knight of the Order of Santiago, Viceroy, Governor, Captain General of New
Spain, President of the Real Audencia… Before me the notary said: That the
governor, mayors and elders (chiefs) of the city of Tlaxcala offered Senor
Virrey 400 married Indians all original citizens of said city (Tlaxcala),
for the establishment of said settlement (the new Chichimeca settlement),
who left and were divided into 4 wagon groups with their women and children
in said city (San Juan del Rio) where they were supposed to deliver
themselves (submit to orders) to the Lieutenant (Agustin de Hinojosa). Some
respectfully did not deliver themselves (did not submit to orders).
Because it is just that it be known and understood, it must be determined
(investigate) if the 400 indians delivered themselves and if all are apart
of the contingent … (with that intent) he (lieutenant Agustin de Hinojosa)
mandates an account with names including women and children, neighborhood,
details (origin and neighborhood) and chief. In order for the truth to be
known for all time, the count was taken in the following manner:
————————————————–
From:
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:03 AM
To:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] TRASLATION TO englisH
> TRASLATION TO englisH down
> COLECCION DE DOCUMENTOS PARA LA HISTORIA DE SAN LUIS POTOSI
> CUENTA POR SUS NOMBRES (CENSO) DE LOS INDIOS DE TLAXCAL QUE VINIERO A
> POBLAR ENTRE LOS CHICHIMECAS
>
> EN EL RIO DE SAN JUAN (HOY SAN JUAN DEL RIO QUERETARO)EL 6 DE JULIO DE
> 1591, AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA VILLABICENCIO, TENIENTE DE CAPITAN GENERAL PARA
> LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONNES DE CHICHIMECAS DEL EXCELENTISIMO SEÑOR DON LUIS DE
> VELASCO, CABALLERO DE LA ORDEN DE SANTIAGO, VIRREY, GOBERNADOR, CAPITAN
> GENERAL DE ESTA NUEVA ESPAÑA, PRESIDENTE DE LA REAL AUDIENCIA… ANTE MI
> EL NOTARIO, DIJO:
> QUE EL GOBERNADOR, ALCALDES Y PRINCIPALES (CACIQUES) DE LA CIUDAD DE
> TLAXCALA OFRECIERON AL SEÑOR VIRREY 400 INDIOS CASADOS VECINOS Y
> ORIGINARIOS DE DICHA CIUDAD(TLAXCALA), PARA CON ELLOS HACER (FUNDAR)
> DICHAS POBLACIONES (LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONES DE LOS CHICHIMECAS), LOS CUALES
> SALIERON Y SE DIVIDIERON EN 4 “CUADRILLAS DE CARROS”? CON SUS MUJERES E
> HIJOS EN DICHA CIUDAD (SAN JUAN DEL RIO)DONDE HABIAN DE ENTREGARSE
> (PONERSE A LAS ORDENES)AL TENIENTE(AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA). ALGUNOS “JUSTOS
> RESPETOS”(RESPETADOS) NO SE ENTREGARON(PONERSE A LAS ORDENES).
> POR QUE ES JUSTO, PARA QUE SE SEPA Y SE ENTIENDA, SE AVERIGÜE
> (INVESTIGUE)SI SE ENTREGARON LOS 400 INDIOS Y SI TODOS VIENEN EN EL
> CONTINGENTE…(PARA ESO) MANDÓ HACER LA CUENTA DE TODOS ELLOS POR SUS
> NOMBRES, CON SUS MUJERES E HIJOS, DE SUS BARRIOS, PARCIALIDADES (ORIGEN Y
> VECINDAD)Y A QUIE TRAÍN POR CAPITAN, PARA QUE EN TODO TIENPO CONSTE LA
> VERDAD. SE HIZO LA CUENTA DE LA MANERA SIGUIENTE:
>
>
> ….. (ENSEGUIDA VIENE LA LISTA DE LOS NOMBRES DE LOS INDIOS Y EN QUE
> “CARRO”(CONTINGENTE) VENIAN…
>
> ALGUIEN MAS QUE COLABORE?
> _________________________________________________________________________________________
Thank you Miguel for taking on the transciption of this very important document and thank you Angela for such a beautiful and clear translation.
Now we just need some additional volunteers to transcribe the list of names…
Please members, think of all that you get from this community and if you have some time to spare, please consider giving a bit of it back for the sake of the community.
Dear Group,
After three years of searching with no evidence of my grgrandfather Rosalio Onate’s existence other than a 1917 visit to the US through the border crossing, I thought I’d try something I’ve done before with no results: Google! Lo and behold two entries from http://www.ags.gob.mx/archivo/fondo/fondo_historico.asp dating 1927 and 1932 show what appears to be business entries. However, I can’t seem to get beyond those entries and find out whether it was posted by the city or state government, and how to access the complete petition/request forms. Has anyone in the group accessed this source. Since the 1930 Aguascalientes, Ags. census is not available, at least these entries told me that he was alive and still in business in 1932. Any help from anyone would be appreciated. Alice BB
> _________________________________________________________________________________________
When you start looking at the actual listing of the names on the 1591 San Juan del Rio census you will run into two interesting words/phrases:
“iten”
“con un y hijo”
We need to decide what these two items refer to. I have gotten a few possible clues sent via email to me. Thanks to Luis Garcia, Patricia Sanchez Rau and Gregory Schaaf
yten = tambien [ditto]
itencopa = by word or command of
ihuan = y [and]
itehuan = nosotros [us]
iten = a la orrilla de [on the edge of]
I’m also wondering if what we have come to accept as common misspellings of Spanish names might not have been deliberate spellings to indicate an indigenous background. For example, from the 1692 Census of El Paso del Norte we see the following “misspelled” names: Lazaro, Mizquia, Ynigo, Xiron, Jacintha, Xptobal, Ysidro, Ysabel, Luxan, Luxero, Xaramillo and Truxillo.
Maybe these spellings are a clue that we need to follow up on possible Tlaxcalan ancestors.
Stanley A Lucero
Madera, California
Incorrect Spelling is only a relatively new idea. In the 1600’s it was understood that you may write a word with a slight variation without changing the meaning. Most people could not read and write and those that did, were not concerned with only one spelling.
——Original Message——
From: stanley.lucero@comcast.net
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans
Sent: Jan 28, 2010 1:26 PM
When you start looking at the actual listing of the names on the 1591 San Juan del Rio census you will run into two interesting words/phrases:
“iten”
“con un y hijo”
We need to decide what these two items refer to. I have gotten a few possible clues sent via email to me. Thanks to Luis Garcia, Patricia Sanchez Rau and Gregory Schaaf
yten = tambien [ditto]
itencopa = by word or command of
ihuan = y [and]
itehuan = nosotros [us]
iten = a la orrilla de [on the edge of]
I’m also wondering if what we have come to accept as common misspellings of Spanish names might not have been deliberate spellings to indicate an indigenous background. For example, from the 1692 Census of El Paso del Norte we see the following “misspelled: names: Lazaro, Mizquia, Ynigo, Xiron, Jacintha, Xptobal, Ysidro, Ysabel, Luxan, Luxero, Xaramillo and Truxillo.
Maybe these spellings are a clue that we need to follow up on possible Tlaxcalan ancestors.
Stanley A Lucero
Madera, California
Angelina Markle has volunteered to head up the transcription and transliteration of the Tlaxcalan 400 Families Census. If you would like to help, please contact her through the contact form available at the Nuestros Ranchos website:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/user/2396
In reference to Stanley’s questions about the word “iten” and name spellings:
“iten” was a common word used in lists of people, chattle, etc. in these older documents and has the first meaning presented by Stanley, i.e. “tambien.” The etymology of the English word “item” is the same as this word. It would be the equivalent of a bullet point in our modern day…
The “common misspellings” are not misspellings at all. You have to remember that this document was written in 1591, long before the Castillian language had been chosen as the lingua franca of New Spain and long before Castillian spelling was standardized. Thus the spelling is the spelling of those names as the scribe saw fit, probably from his own experience in his own Spanish dialect and educational tradition, i.e. a mixture of Latin/Greek/Asturian or Catalan, etc…
– Ynigo is a common name today in the Basque country
– Lazaro is the modern spelling of a common name, i.e. Lazaro Cardenas
– Jacintha would be the Greek spelling of the name Jacinta, much like Theresa retained the silent H in Spanish until the language reforms.
– Xptobal is a very common abbreviation for Cristobal, i.e. X stands for Christ.
– Ysidro and Ysabel were likewise the common spellings of Isidro and Isabel prior to the language reforms
– The X was commonly used to signal a “J” sound in pre-reform Castillian spelling and a “SH” sound in Catalan so Luxan, Luxero, Xaramillo and Truxillo were common spellings of what today is spelled Lujan, Lucero, Jaramillo and Trujillo.
Interesting about the use of “X” since Nahuatl languages have very frequent use of the “SH” sound so when adapting the Roman alphabet to the language, X was chosen to represent that sound, as it does in Catalan and Basque. Thus Mexico was pronounced “Me-SHI-ko” and Tlaxcala was pronounced “Tlash-KA-la.”
With the language reforms there was an attempt to change all of these Xs to Js but doing so would make the words loose their original etymology and pronounciation, i.e. we would have Tlajcala. While Mexico is now commonly pronounced “Me-HEE-ko” the derivative words Mexica or Chicano retain the “SH” so I would have to be a “Jicano.”
We recently had an interesting discussion on this and the spelling of Mexico as Mejico…
The Diccionario panhispánico de dudas by Real Academia Española states that the words dixo (dijo) o traxo (trajo) were pronounced [dísho] o [trásho]. The change in pronunciation from “SH” to “J” started in the 16th century and was common in mid-17th century. This also means that the “SH” sound wasn’t limited to Catalan and Basque.
3. En la Edad Media, la grafía x representaba un sonido palatal fricativo sordo, cuya pronunciación era muy similar a la de la sh inglesa o la ch francesa actuales. Así, palabras como dixo (hoy dijo) o traxo (hoy trajo) se pronunciaban [dísho] o [trásho] (donde [sh] representa un sonido parecido al que emitimos cuando queremos imponer silencio). Este sonido arcaico se conserva en el español de México y de otras zonas de América en palabras de origen náhuatl, como Xola [shóla] o mixiote [mishióte] (no en Xochimilco, en donde la x suena como /s/), y en la pronunciación arcaizante de ciertos apellidos que conservan su forma gráfica antigua, como Ximénez o Mexía.
4. El sonido medieval antes descrito (→ 3) evolucionó a partir del siglo xvi hasta convertirse en el sonido velar fricativo sordo /j/, que en la escritura moderna se representa con las letras j o g (ante e, i) (→ j y g, 2.2). No obstante, la grafía arcaica con x se conserva hoy en varios topónimos americanos, como México, Oaxaca, Texas (→ México, Oaxaca, Texas), con sus respectivos derivados mexicano, oaxaqueño, texano, etc., y en variantes americanas de algunos nombres propios de persona, como Ximena, o apellidos como los anteriormente citados (→ 3). No debe olvidarse que la pronunciación correcta de estas voces es con sonido /j/ ([méjiko], [oajáka], [téjas], [jiména]), y no con sonido /ks/ (Marca de incorrección.[méksiko], Marca de incorrección.[oaksáka], Marca de incorrección.[téksas], Marca de incorrección.[ksiména]). También quedan restos de esta x arcaica en algunos topónimos españoles que hoy se pronuncian corrientemente con sonido [k + s], como Almorox, Borox, Guadix y Sax. Sus gentilicios respectivos (almorojano, borojeño, guadijeño y sajeño) demuestran que, en su origen, la x que contienen se pronunciaba /j/.
http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=x
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/X
Antonio de Nebrija wrote the first work on the study of the Castillian language in 1492. In this work he uses the words such as traxo and dixo. He defines the pronunciation of the X is as a “CS” This would be the equivalent of “KS” I take that to mean he never used the “SH” sound. The work can be read in it’s entirety at http://www.antoniodenebrija.org/indice.html
Armando
