Hey Ronnie,
Let me see if I can explain this without making it too confusing.
Luis Tiscareño de Molina and Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza had a daughter named
Lorenza Tiscareño, also known as Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza (like her mother).
This Lorenza married Capt. Pedro Romo de Vivar.
Luis and Lorenza also had a daughter named Francisca who went by the name
Francisca Gabai (instead of Francisca Tiscareño). She was named after her
grandmother Francisca Gabai de Moctezuma. There were no rules to name
children like we have today, so sometimes people gave their children the
name of a beloved grandfather or grandmother, surname included.
This Francisca Gabai, the daughter of Luis Tiscareño de Molina and Lorenza
Ruiz de Esparza, married Joseph Delgado on 30 Aug 1644 at the Parroquia de
la Asunción in Aguascalientes. They had several children and one of them
was also named Lorenza. I have seen her name written Lorenza Delgado Gabai,
Lorenza Delgado Tiscareño and Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza. I think they thought
it was “cool” to name their daughters exactly as their grandmothers. Some
church records refer to Lorenza Delgado as Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza, her
grandmother’s name. Lorenza Delgado married Francisco Romo de Vivar on 12
Feb 1668 at the chapel in Luis Tiscareño’s “Hacienda de San Bartolo”.
In summary, there were three Lorenzas Ruiz de Esparza:
1) The daughter of Lope Ruiz de Esparza and Francisca Gabai de Moctezuma,
who married Luis Tiscareño de Molina.
2) The daughter of Luis Tiscareño de Molina and Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza, who
married Pedro Romo de Vivar.
3) The daughter of Joseph Delgado and Francisca Gabai (Francisca Tiscareño)
who married Francisco Romo de Vivar.
Hope this sheds some light on this confusing issue.
Take care, primo.
Bill Figueroa
I have just made the connection to the Diego Romo de Vivar family of Aguascalientes. As part of my research I looked for him in the Pasajer]os a Indias (at PARES: Portal de Achivos Españoles). I did not find him, but the search turned up several other Romo’s but the most interesting were Licenciado Luis Romo and Diego Romo.
For Luis Romo it says:
El Licenciado Luis Romo, natural de Rielves (en la información pone natural de Allende Vacas), soltero, hijo de Juan Romo y de Ana Dias de Aguero, al Perú, Information y licencia en CONTRATACION, 5234B, N, 1, R.29. The record is dated Dec 17, 1591.
For Diego Romo is says:
Diego Romo, natural de Rielves (en la información pone Illán de Vacas), soltero, hijo de Juan Romo y Ana Diaz (de Aguero), al Perú como criado del licenciado Luis Romo. Información y licencia en CONTRATACION, 5234B, N.1, R.30. The reocrd is also dated Dec. 17, 1591.
Diego Romo de Vivar who came to Nueva España was born in 12 Mar 1588/89, in Rielves (source: Connie Dominguez’s file on the Romo de Vivar family posted here at Nuestros Ranchos).
I have not yet found any references to Juan Romo and Ana Diaz de Aguero.
Are Diego and Luis who went to Peru related to Diego who went to Mexico?
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
George,
I have seen many people listed in Pasajeros a Indias, with the city where
they are from inadvertently recorded as the last name of the individual. Try
looking for the first name with the city as the last name. You might get
some hits that way. You might also want to do a search in that archive with
the name of the city only and then lastly, just try some variations with the
surname and city to see what comes up.
Another thing that you need to be aware of when searching Pares or
other databases is that, more often than not, the searches are exact. So any
variation in the name will not show up.
For instance, if you type Jerez in Pares you will get many results, but if
you type Xerez or Jeres you will only get a few hits. All the hits might be
relevant to the place or name of interest.
Good luck!
I would not doubt that all these Romo are related, Rielves is just a small pueblo in Spain, prob. some uncles or distant cousins. I also come from the Romo de Vivar several times. -Daniel Camino
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_faster_112008
Just wanted to add a note to this thread. In the Retonos de Espana en la Nueva Galicia page 328 it shows a pedigree tree where of many names it states the following:
Cap. Diego ROMO DE VIVAR , Tte. de Gob. del Parral, pacificador de los indios mansos. N, Rielves 12_III_1589 + Sta. Ma. del Rio Florido (Chih)1640
Does this mean that Diego ROMO DE VIVAR died in Sta. Ma. del Rio Florido (Chih) in 1640?
And why “pacificador de los indios mansos?” Do tame indians need to be pacified???
If that’s the case then:
This is the Diego ROMO DE VIVAR married to Maria RANGEL +Ags. 1659
Lope RUIZ DE ESPARZA Y DIEZ DE EGUINOA +born in Pamplona died in Ags 14 SEP 1651 married Francisca GABAI + 30 MAR 1652
Luis
Capitan Diego Romo de Vivar was a member of the inquisition
he had family in chihuahua I believe the Romo de VERA family was related to him
the vera came from a wife and was not a corruption of vivar
Ricci
________________________________
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org on behalf of Xayme
Sent: Sun 3/22/2009 1:45 PM
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Romo De Vivar Aguascalientes
Just wanted to add a note to this thread. In the Retonos de Espana en la Nueva Galicia page 328 it shows a pedigree tree where of many names it states the following:
Cap. Diego ROMO DE VIVAR , Tte. de Gob. del Parral, pacificador de los indios mansos. N, Rielves 12_III_1589 + Sta. Ma. del Rio Florido (Chih)1640
Does this mean that Diego ROMO DE VIVAR died in Sta. Ma. del Rio Florido (Chih) in 1640?
And why “pacificador de los indios mansos?” Do tame indians need to be pacified???
If that’s the case then:
This is the Diego ROMO DE VIVAR married to Maria RANGEL +Ags. 1659
Lope RUIZ DE ESPARZA Y DIEZ DE EGUINOA +born in Pamplona died in Ags 14 SEP 1651 married Francisca GABAI + 30 MAR 1652
Luis
Luis,
Diego Romo de Vivar was still alive a year before his wife died on 19 Jun 1659. On 5 May 1658 Capt. Diego Romo de Vivar and María Rangel were “padrinos” at the wedding of their sons Juan and Pedro Romo de Vivar, who married two Tiscareño girls, María and Lorenza, in a double ceremony in Aguascalientes. His son Capt. Juan Romo de Vivar, Justicia Mayor de Aguascalientes, and his wife María Tiscareño, are my 8th great grandparents. The marriage record reads as follows:
“El 5 de mayo de 1658 en la capilla de Luys Tiscareño casé y velé a Juan Romo de Vivar con María de Tiscareño, y a Pedro Romo de Vivar con Lorenza de Esparza [Lorenza de Tiscareño] siendo padrinos de Juan Romo, Juan de Tiscareño y Isabel Romo su muger, y de Pedro Romo el Capitán Diego Romo de Vivar y María Rangel su muger. Fueron testigos el sargento Don Alonso Ramírez de Prado, Alcalde Mayor de esta villa, y Don Lorenzo Ramírez de Prado.”
Here is some additional information from “Familia Romo de Vivar: Una de las Ramas de Aguascalientes y Teocaltiche,” Academia Mexicana de Genealogia e Historia (AMG) 5 1a Series (1949): 141-167. This information was provided in various letters by Jaime Holcombe.
Volume 129 (1755-1784) of the “Comprobación de Méritos de Bachilleres, Licenciados y Doctores de la Real y Pontificia Universidad de México” contains the following record, beginning on page 91:
“Doctor Francisco Mariano Rangel Alcaraz, natural de la Ciudad, hijo de Diego Rangel de Viezma y María Nicolasa Alcaraz Villarreal, vecinos de la Ciudad. Nieto paterno de Ignacio Rangel de Viezma y Francisca Contreras; bisnieto del Alférez Real Juan Rangel de Viezma, primer descubridor de San José del Parral.”
Said discoverer of the mineral lodes in the Chihuahua township now named Hidalgo del Parral, appears as Juan Rangel Peguero in other records. A resident of Zacatecas and the son of the Conquistador Alonso Rangel and Luisa Velásquez de Salazar, he married María Rosales. **
His daugher, María Rangel was the spouse of Captain Diego Romo de Vivar, from Rielves, Toledo, where he was christened 12 March 1589 as a son of Diego Romo and Catalina Pérez. Romo had come to New Spain as “Teniente de Gobernador de San José del Parral y pacificador de los indios mansos.”
The Romos eventually settled in Aguascalientes, where María died on 19 June 1659. Shortly after, Diego returned to Parral, where the family owned properties, and died there. Among his belongings was the Rancho de Canutillo, later owned by Francisco Villa, who was assassinated in Parral on 20 June 1923 by Jesús Salas Barraza’s men.
Most of the Romo de Vivar descendants remained in Aguascalientes and populated different parts of Nueva Galicia province. However, several descendants with the Romo and Cobos surnames went to Chihuahua. Salvador Treviño Castro, S. J. has done extensive research on those lines.”
I guess Diego Romo de Vivar was “pacificador de los indios mansos” because the “indios belicosos” were either killed or forced into submission by the Spaniards who conquered la Nueva Galicia.
Bill Figueroa
Juan ROMO DE VIVAR is the husband of my 8x great-grandmother.
Pedro ROMO DE VIVAR is the husband of my 8x great-aunt
I suspect that same ROMO line marries into the JAIME line further on down the line too.
Would you happen to know how is this Pedro ROMO related to:
Pedro Jesus ROMO DE VIVAR m. Maria Guadalupe CASTANEDA JAIME
31 Mar 1786 in San Jose de Gracia, Rincon de Romos, AGS, MX?
Luis TISCARENO DE MOLINA Y MARQUEZ is my 9x great-grandfather
So you’re saying that Alférez Real Juan RANGEL DE VIEZMA is actually Juan RANGEL PEGUERO?
And if so, do I understand correctly that he is the father of:
Ignacio RANGEL DE VIEZMA m. Francisca CONTRERAS
who is the father of:
Diego RANGEL DE VIEZMA m. Maria Nicolasa ALCARAZ VILLAREAL
who was the father of:
Dr. Francisco Mariano RANGEL ALCARAZ?
Luis,
If Juan ROMO DE VIVAR is the husband of your 8x great-grandmother, then Juan is your 8x great-grandfather, right? jejeje
I have Pedro Jose ROMO DE VIVAR (not Pedro Jesus) who married Maria Guadalupe CASTANEDA 21 Mar 1786 in Rincon de Romos (ayuda de Parroquia de San Jose de Gracia) as the second great-grandson of Diego Romo de Vivar. The connections are as follows:
*Person: Pedro Jose ROMO DE VIVAR married to Maria Guadalupe CASTANEDA
Parents: Joseph Andrés ROMO DE VIVAR and Maria Margarita MARTIN DE SOTOMAYOR
Paternal grandparents: Nicolas ROMO DE VIVAR and MARIA DE VILLALOBOS
Paternal great-grandparents: Pedro ROMO DE VIVAR and LORENZA TISCARENO
*Paternal 2x great-grandparents: Diego ROMO DE VIVAR and MARIA RANGEL DE VIEZMA Y ROSALES
Paternal 3x great-grandparents: Diego ROMO DE VIVAR and CATALINA PEREZ
I will answer your other questions tomorrow. It is close to midnight in Dallas and I’ve been working out. Will talk to you in the morning.
Bill Figueroa
Thanks Bill,
I knew there had to be another connection somewhere… Would you send me the dates resources on those? Also, does your ROMO line happen to go down to Miguel Santos ROMO m. Maria OCHOA?
And for the record there are two Juan ROMO DE VIVARs right? Juan ROMO DE VIVAR RANGEL and Juan ROMO DE VIVAR TISCARENO?
And about Juan ROMO DE VIVAR being the husband of my 8x great-grandmother, then Juan being 8x great-grandfather. I thought that was the case but that’s how my FTW software calculated it which I thought was pretty weird… LOL
Thanks again,
Luis
Luis,
Here is some additional info. about the RANGEL families of Nueva Galicia:
The Alférez Real Juan RANGEL DE VIEZMA, who married María ROSALES, was also known as Juan RANGEL PEGUERO. He was the son of Alonso RANGEL PEGUERO, Conquistador, and Luisa VELASQUEZ DE SALAZAR. My good friend Felipe REYES ROMO gave me the following information about Juan RANGEL PEGUERO:
1583. Se otorga en la Cd. de México un poder de Juan Rangel a Marcos de Biesma.
1584. Merced de la Real Audiencia, año de 1584, a Juan Rangel Peguero de un sitio de estancia para ganado menor en términos de Pachuca, cerca de los de Tilquautla, con la posesión que tomó, y la información que dio doña Francisca Velásquez de Salazar de como le pertenecía a ella y a sus hijos.
1584. Merced de tierras en favor de Juan Rangel Pegueros compartiéndola con Rodrigo Yáñez.
The Alférez Real Juan RANGEL DE VIEZMA and María ROSALES were the parents of:
1. Ignacio RANGEL DE VIEZMA m. Francisca CONTRERAS. Their son Diego RANGEL DE VIEZMA CONTRERAS married María Nicolasa ALCARAZ VILLAREAL They were the parents of Dr. Francisco Mariano RANGEL ALCARAZ.
2. Diego PEGUERO RANGEL m. Juana ORTIZ CORTES
3. Maria RANGEL DE VIEZMA m. Diego ROMO DE VIVAR
Bill Figueroa
Luis,
This is in answer some of your questions:
1) My line does NOT go Miguel Santos ROMO who married Maria OCHOA. I have no information on this couple.
2) I’ll look up the resources you requested and send them via separate email within the next couple of days.
3) As far as I know, Juan ROMO DE VIVAR RANGEL and Maria TISCARENO did not have a son named Juan. There was a Juan ROMO DE VIVAR TISCARENO, the son Pedro ROMO DE VIVAR and Lorenza TISCARENO. I have no information about him, other than he probably died young. I have several Juan ROMO VIVARs in my database. Which one did you have in mind?
Bill
