Hello Johnny –
 
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena, Zacatecas originate from?
 
Thank you,
 
Rudy

— On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans, Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is Peter Gerhard’s “North Frontier of New Spain.”  Gerhard discussed each province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction, including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard’s writings. For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to  my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group “lived in its own barrio,” and these became pueblos segregated by nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs (Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

—–Original Message—–
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won’t ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with “mulatos”, and hardly any indians.  What tribes in Africa were they from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier?  Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no?  I have heard some Mexicans say “soy puro mexicano”, but there is no pure mexican race–aren’t most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian?  And if you look hard enough, don’t most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere?  I do recognize that “soy puro mexicano” is a statement of national pride.  I can’t seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don’t feel “mexican”, and my “patria” is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are “mexican”, but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home.  If they learn English, it is their third language.  Even the Mayans don’t understand each other; some speak Ka’anjobal and others speak Quiche.  Most gringos don’t know or care about the differences.  Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a “mexican” to them, and they don’t have a very accepting attitude towards them.  It’s too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn’t foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

  Like Alicia I related to Eric’s commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn’t possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.

  I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

I can’t tell you their place of origin, but they have been discussed by
a dozen or more publications… It was believed that they were distant
cousins to the Guachichiles and split off from them. That was discussed
in that one book “People of the Peyote.” It’s quite a fascinating
theory and may very well be true.

Have you heard of it?

John Schmal

—–Original Message—–
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in
Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)

Hello Johnny –
 
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena,
Zacatecas originate from?
 
Thank you,
 
Rudy

— On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select
Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard’s “North Frontier of New Spain.”  Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard’s writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to  my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
“lived in its own barrio,” and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

—–Original Message—–
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won’t ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
“mulatos”, and hardly any indians.  What tribes in Africa were they
from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier?  Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no?  I have heard some Mexicans
say “soy puro mexicano”, but there is no pure mexican race–aren’t most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian?  And if you look hard enough,
don’t most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere?  I do recognize that
“soy puro mexicano” is a statement of national pride.  I can’t seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don’t feel “mexican”, and my
“patria” is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are “mexican”, but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home.  If they learn English, it is their third language. 
Even the Mayans don’t understand each other; some speak Ka’anjobal and
others speak Quiche.  Most gringos don’t know or care about the
differences.  Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
“mexican” to them, and they don’t have a very accepting attitude
towards them.  It’s too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn’t
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

  Like Alicia I related to Eric’s commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn’t possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.

  I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Rudy, you will probably have no trouble getting a copy of that book (if
you don’t already have it). This is something on the web, but I think
the book makes a pretty strong point, a theory of course:

Identification. The Huichol are a Mexican Indian group located in the
states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. The name “Huichol”
is the term Spaniards used when referring to this group and is possibly
a corruption of the name for either the Guachichil or the Wizarika.
Some scholars believe the Huichol were originally the desert-dwelling
culture known as the “Guachichil,” who, in turn were one of the many
people collectively called “Chichimec.” “Wizarika” is the term the
Huichol use to identify themselves. Its meaning is unclear, but
scholars have proposed various interpretations: “the healers,” “the
sandal wearers,” and “the ones.” The Huichol use the term “Tevi,”
meaning one of “the people” when making distinctions between Huichol
and non-Huichol individuals.

Location. The majority of the Huichol live in the Sierra Madre
Occidental in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango.
This area covers the span of 21°30′ to 22°35′ N and 104°00′ to 104°30′
W. The rugged sierra was formed in the Tertiary period with the lava
flows from active volcanoes. The Huichol occupy some of the most rugged
terrain in the mountain chain, characterized by high mesas, sheer
cliffs, and deep river valleys ranging in elevation from approximately
600 meters to over 1,800 meters. The geography of the sierra consists
of extremes, creating natural barriers that have served to insulate the
Huichol from the outside world. The tops of the mesa are covered with
oak and pine forest. In the lower elevations are subtropical scrub
vegetation and thorn forests, which include such genera as Acacia,
Ficus, Lysiloma, Ceiba, Bombax, Bursera, Opuntia, and Agave. The
herbaceous vegetation is predominantly grasses and geophytes.

Read more:
http://www.everyculture.com/Middle-America-Caribbean/Huichol-Orientation.html#ixzz0YfWWK8Oq

—–Original Message—–
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in
Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)

Hello Johnny –
 
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena,
Zacatecas originate from?
 
Thank you,
 
Rudy

— On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select
Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard’s “North Frontier of New Spain.”  Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard’s writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to  my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
“lived in its own barrio,” and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

—–Original Message—–
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won’t ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
“mulatos”, and hardly any indians.  What tribes in Africa were they
from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier?  Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no?  I have heard some Mexicans
say “soy puro mexicano”, but there is no pure mexican race–aren’t most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian?  And if you look hard enough,
don’t most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere?  I do recognize that
“soy puro mexicano” is a statement of national pride.  I can’t seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don’t feel “mexican”, and my
“patria” is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are “mexican”, but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home.  If they learn English, it is their third language. 
Even the Mayans don’t understand each other; some speak Ka’anjobal and
others speak Quiche.  Most gringos don’t know or care about the
differences.  Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
“mexican” to them, and they don’t have a very accepting attitude
towards them.  It’s too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn’t
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

  Like Alicia I related to Eric’s commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn’t possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.

  I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Emilie,

>From what I can recall studying African History in Latin America, it is
widely believed that most of the Africans brought into Central and South
America were initially from Yoruba, which was then a nation east of what is now
known as Benin, however it is difficult to tell, as tribal people were
often separated, as the slave holders didn’t want them to be able to
communicate with each other in their native tongue. I seem to recall an isolated
community in Guerrero was discovered where linguists were able to trace their
language to Yoruba. Because of these practices, it is difficult for many
African Americans to trace their ancestry to a specific tribe in Africa. I
do know however that in the latter years, because of a loop hole in Spanish
law that outlawed slavery in 1829, most slaves who arrived into Latin
countries no longer came from the west coast, they came from Angola.

I am one of the few people that has indeed found proof that I have
Tlaxcaltecan roots. I found birth certificates indicating that the name Bermea
(known then as Bermeo) and Flores were brought into Nadadores, Coahuila to
pacify existing nomadic tribes, later moving to a small settlement where they
were among the first settlers. This was BIG…as I know such records are
virtually impossible to find. I have read that Tlaxcalans were initially
brought into Zacatecas to keep the continued insurgents of the natives
(Caxcan) down. However, I have also read that other indigenous people were
brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including “chinos” who were from the
Philippines. (Eric…you might find this interesting with your discovery of your DNA
Test and discovery)
_ http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900_
( http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900) .

For me, history has been relayed by those in power, so it is natural that
the records uncovered would have been written and kept by the Spanish. It
is much more interesting to discover roots of those whose voices/hisotry
were oppressed. .

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

Well, Rick, I can understand why you feel more Mexican, being that you now live in Mexico, and I don’t know if your parents were born in America or Mexico, but my experience is different. Maybe you were raised closer to the culture, but I experienced “culture shock” in Mexico, not knowing proper Castellan, etc.

My mother, born in 1902, was a Piro-Manso-Tewa Indian whose ancestors were from New Mexico, the Lower El Paso Valley, and Juarez since the late 1600s. Her father was born in America, too, in 1878. They did have Spanish ancestors too, and those came up North with Onate in 1598. Maybe some were hidalgos, but all I have learned is that most of the men were officers stationed in presidios from Santa Fe to Parral. Their culture and language is different than that in Mexico, though it was all Mexico once, but it was an outpost for centuries and the people there became a breed all their own, with their own food, customs, language.

I related more to my mother’s relations since during WWII we lived for years with them in New Mexico while my father, born in Zacatecas, was working on building ships in Oakland, California. My father criticized my mother’s Spanish so much, and she didn’t like his relatives, so I didn’t grow up speaking Spanish or listening to Mexican music, etc. My father’s heart was in Jerez which they left in 1913 during the Revolution. I had not only a cultural gap with him, but a generational one. He was old enough to be my grandfather. He was too strict, didn’t feel girls should go to school, talk, date, etc.

My husband, born in Texas in 1935, comes from Altenos from Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco, and his pedigree includes all the surnames prominent there, and not one ancestor was anything other than espanol. I know that his mother’s family had to have been conversos, but they would have been livid to hear about that, they were so “catolicos”. However, his father was born in America in 1909.

My husband and I went to see his maternal aunt in Mexico City in 1968 where she was a profesora. She looked very espanola, with her green eyes, etc. She asked my husband to go with her to search for some of her male students in the university; their parents had pleaded to her to help find their sons since the police, etc. weren’t forthcoming. There had been riots then and many students were killed or “disappeared” never to be heard from again. My husband was so disgusted, he has never wanted to return. Also his aunt was not very welcoming to me; she stated that no one in her family had ever married an Indian before. (yo sali pura india). My husband does not feel “Alteno” though I have traced his ancestry clear back to the late 1600s in Aguascalientes. He is a former Marine, a Korean War vet; his father was a Marine too, who fought for the Stars and Stripes during WWII, so his heart is here in America.

It would be nice to go and visit or even move to the places where your ancestors were from, but haven’t you ever wanted to go to Spain where they originated, being that you know exactly where in Spain they originated (in Leon or Castilla)? Why does Mexico claim your heart and spirit more than Spain? Perhaps your parents influenced you.

You know the country that I feel that way about? New Mexico. I guess that part of the world calls to my spirit the way Jalisco calls to yours; I love the food from there, the customs so integrated with the Pueblo Indian culture. For Christmas I put up my “New Mexico” tree with ornaments I have gathered made in the Pueblos that reflect that culture. My cousin is a war captain for our tribe of Piro-Manso-Tewa. He has photos of our ancestors dressed in native wear, and tried to explain some of the customs to me, the fetishes, the tribal drum. Our grandfathers attended schools for Indians in Oklahoma because the whites didn’t want them in their schools in NM.

You say you got into genealogy to find out how Mexican you were? How Aztec you were? I just went into it to find out my ancestors’ names, where and how they had lived, etc. I once was fascinated by the Aztec culture, I visited all those pyramids, etc. But my father said we might not be Aztec on his side, and that anyway the Aztecs were a cruel, savage culture that subjugated other tribes, and that I should be as fascinated with his Spanish or French blood. (Actually, his ancestors, the Olague, came from Navarre, and they were Basques). He just thought of “Mexican” as a race, though he told me we were “mestizo”, mixed race.

What a pity I can’t visit Mexico (my husband abhors it, or rather he abhors the cruel and corrupt government). I’ve been to Jerez, and I would like to see where you live, since that is where my husband’s ancestors are from. Why don’t you post some photos of where you live and work?

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

.
—– Original Message —–
From: Rick Rodriguez
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican

To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
connection with the place I feel I belong to.

The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
where I come from, how I am built.

Although I was born in the US, I don’t feel that I’m American, I feel that
I’m Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don’t feel I’m Spanish at all, I still feel
that I’m Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
I still don’t feel that I am Spanish, because I’m not, I’m Mexican.

So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
I’m an Alteno, I’m Mexican.

Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco

Thank you Mr. Schmal. I will enjoy reading your articles on this subject. I have read many of your articles and find them so informative.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: johnnypj@aol.com
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:19 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard’s “North Frontier of New Spain.” Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard’s writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
“lived in its own barrio,” and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

—–Original Message—–
From: Emilie Garcia <auntyemfaustus@hotmail.com>
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won’t ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
“mulatos”, and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say “soy puro mexicano”, but there is no pure mexican race–aren’t most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don’t most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
“soy puro mexicano” is a statement of national pride. I can’t seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don’t feel “mexican”, and my
“patria” is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are “mexican”, but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don’t understand each other; some speak Ka’anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don’t know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
“mexican” to them, and they don’t have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It’s too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn’t
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long<mailto:longsjourney@yahoo.com>
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org<mailto:general@nuestrosranchos.org<mailto:general@nuestrosranchos.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Like Alicia I related to Eric’s commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn’t possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.

I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

Thank you Esperanza. You know, you mentioned something very interesting; you said “I have also read that other indigenous people were brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including “chinos” who were from the Philippines”.

You know, I am often mistaken for Filipino. I thought it was because of my Pueblo Indian blood that gives me my Asian eyes, since they say that American natives originated in Asia and came through Alaska. Now I am wondering, were some of my father’s “indian” ancestors mixed with Filipinos brought to Zacatecas by the Spaniards? Is that where my looks came from and not from my mother’s ancestors in New Mexico? I know that the Spaniards’ ships brought booty from the Phillipines, but now you tell me they also brought slaves from there.

I am looking at a photo of my father when he was 17. I was born when he was almost 40, so he had changed a lot when I knew him, he got bald, had dentures, etc. but in the photo of him at 17 he does look Filipino! What a shame I had no brothers or male cousins close enough to get their DNA (my father died in 1966). My DNA won’t tell me a thing about my father’s ancestors.

I am also wondering about the Chinese in Zacatecas. My father was very prejudiced, and he told me he didn’t want me to be friends with “Chinos” in college (they were from Taiwan), because he didn’t like them. I asked why, and he said, “because in Jerez they wanted to marry our women”. I didn’t know they had Chinese in Jerez, or did they back when he lived there in 1903-1913? Or was it just a story told by his forbears who thought the Filipino slaves were Chinese (Chinos)?

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: latina1955@aol.com
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Emilie,

>From what I can recall studying African History in Latin America, it is
widely believed that most of the Africans brought into Central and South
America were initially from Yoruba, which was then a nation east of what is now
known as Benin, however it is difficult to tell, as tribal people were
often separated, as the slave holders didn’t want them to be able to
communicate with each other in their native tongue. I seem to recall an isolated
community in Guerrero was discovered where linguists were able to trace their
language to Yoruba. Because of these practices, it is difficult for many
African Americans to trace their ancestry to a specific tribe in Africa. I
do know however that in the latter years, because of a loop hole in Spanish
law that outlawed slavery in 1829, most slaves who arrived into Latin
countries no longer came from the west coast, they came from Angola.

I am one of the few people that has indeed found proof that I have
Tlaxcaltecan roots. I found birth certificates indicating that the name Bermea
(known then as Bermeo) and Flores were brought into Nadadores, Coahuila to
pacify existing nomadic tribes, later moving to a small settlement where they
were among the first settlers. This was BIG…as I know such records are
virtually impossible to find. I have read that Tlaxcalans were initially
brought into Zacatecas to keep the continued insurgents of the natives
(Caxcan) down. However, I have also read that other indigenous people were
brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including “chinos” who were from the
Philippines. (Eric…you might find this interesting with your discovery of your DNA
Test and discovery)
_ http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900_
( http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900) .

For me, history has been relayed by those in power, so it is natural that
the records uncovered would have been written and kept by the Spanish. It
is much more interesting to discover roots of those whose voices/hisotry
were oppressed. .

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

Hello Johnny –
 
Thank you so much for the impressive information! Only question I have is what book are you reffering to?
 
Again, my thanks,
 
Rudy

— On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:49 PM

Rudy, you will probably have no trouble getting a copy of that book (if you don’t already have it).  This is something on the web, but I think the book makes a pretty strong point, a theory of course:

Identification. The Huichol are a Mexican Indian group located in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. The name “Huichol” is the term Spaniards used when referring to this group and is possibly a corruption of the name for either the Guachichil or the Wizarika. Some scholars believe the Huichol were originally the desert-dwelling culture known as the “Guachichil,” who, in turn were one of the many people collectively called “Chichimec.” “Wizarika” is the term the Huichol use to identify themselves. Its meaning is unclear, but scholars have proposed various interpretations: “the healers,” “the sandal wearers,” and “the ones.” The Huichol use the term “Tevi,” meaning one of “the people” when making distinctions between Huichol and non-Huichol individuals.

Location. The majority of the Huichol live in the Sierra Madre Occidental in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. This area covers the span of 21°30′ to 22°35′ N and 104°00′ to 104°30′ W. The rugged sierra was formed in the Tertiary period with the lava flows from active volcanoes. The Huichol occupy some of the most rugged terrain in the mountain chain, characterized by high mesas, sheer cliffs, and deep river valleys ranging in elevation from approximately 600 meters to over 1,800 meters. The geography of the sierra consists of extremes, creating natural barriers that have served to insulate the Huichol from the outside world. The tops of the mesa are covered with oak and pine forest. In the lower elevations are subtropical scrub vegetation and thorn forests, which include such genera as Acacia, Ficus, Lysiloma, Ceiba, Bombax, Bursera, Opuntia, and Agave. The herbaceous vegetation is predominantly grasses and geophytes.

Read more: http://www.everyculture.com/Middle-America-Caribbean/Huichol-Orientation.html#ixzz0YfWWK8Oq

—–Original Message—–
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)

Hello Johnny –
 
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena, Zacatecas originate from?
 
Thank you,
 
Rudy

— On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:

From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM

One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans, Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is Peter Gerhard’s “North Frontier of New Spain.”  Gerhard discussed each province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction, including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.

I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard’s writings. For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.

Here are the links to  my stories:

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html

http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm

Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group “lived in its own barrio,” and these became pueblos segregated by nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs (Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)

John Schmal

—–Original Message—–
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

Linda, I feel sad that we won’t ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with “mulatos”, and hardly any indians.  What tribes in Africa were they from?

I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier?  Does anyone know more about this?

Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no?  I have heard some Mexicans say “soy puro mexicano”, but there is no pure mexican race–aren’t most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian?  And if you look hard enough, don’t most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere?  I do recognize that “soy puro mexicano” is a statement of national pride.  I can’t seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don’t feel “mexican”, and my “patria” is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.

I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are “mexican”, but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home.  If they learn English, it is their third language.  Even the Mayans don’t understand each other; some speak Ka’anjobal and others speak Quiche.  Most gringos don’t know or care about the differences.  Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a “mexican” to them, and they don’t have a very accepting attitude towards them.  It’s too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn’t foster good relationships, and is non-productive.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
—– Original Message —–
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood

  Like Alicia I related to Eric’s commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn’t possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.

  I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!

Linda in Boulder City

I had learned this too, like the USA, Mexico is a diversed countries, all types of European, Asian,

Middle Eastern, African, Native Americans all live in Mexico now. It has become one of the most diversed countries

in America.

-Daniel

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Wow I love your comment Emilie!!!

Its funny, in Mexico its common to hear “oh soy espanol” or “soy frances” etc…but the European Mexicans

hardly ever say there mejicano. Once they come to the US then they start saying “soy mejicano”. Its the same

deal in the US, we say oh were Spanish, French or Italian etc….I do identify as Spanish in the US because

my my moms side is more recently Spanish immigrants to Mexico late 1800s. My dad is mostly Portuguese-Mexican.

I think in the US we tend to americanize and the ones that can assimilate, which was common to hear my mom

say shes white and shes born in Mexico. I think people in the US tend to seperate us Spanish speakers into our

own race; where inreality hispanos can be white, black or asian, its not a race. Then it annoys me when they dont

believe I speak Spanish!

I dont think the Aztecas are Mexican in my opinion they would be native american. I think mejicano means a descendant

of the colonist who created Mexico and all those who later immigrated and assimilated into Mexican society. I dont think

Mexican is a race, all throughout Mexico youll see different cultues, from European to native american; its a spectrum!

I hope to go to Mexico next summer, I always have a good time when I go!

Do you think you could send my your husbands’s pedigree it would be cool

to see how were related. I have ancestors all over Los Altos and surrounding

alteno provinces.

-Daniel

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My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term

Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US

its common to see the hyphenated American term

(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.

-Daniel

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This occurs specially with middle and upper class mexicans

(usually espanoles) even if they have one ancestor who is

indio they wont claim it because its not enough for them.

It also depends on how were raised too, if its mostly

Spanish culture would we not identify as spanish?

I have found 1 or two indio ancestors from the 1600s

and 1700s. Then theres also the possible Moctezuma/Esparza

connection, one black ancestor and one jewish ancestor.

For me that was 200-300 years ago if not more. Its not close

hence why I dont claim it, but I am aware they are there!

And then theres the dicho my grandpa always says,

mas espanol mas mejicano.

Which is ironic because Mejico is a pluricultural nation.

-Daniel

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I still have difficulty understanding why people claim french blood just becaause they were white.

Like Don Mariano gonzalez leal said, la gente mejicana es blanca por que sus antepasados eran espanoles.

The Spaniards were also white europeans. I commonly hear in Mexico “he has blue eyes b/c his grandpa

is french”

This doesnt make sense, a Spaniard can have blue eyes too.

espanol is an iffy term.

espanol is like saying American. Usually when people say american they think white.

I tink espanol could have meant any european who assimilated into Spanish society

in Mexico and were white. Becuase imagine a frenchman who immigrated to Mexico

this Grandchildren wuld have married Spanish in Mexico and would have been labeled

espanol just because of his skin, diregarding his french blood.

-Daniel

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I also think its H1; Ill need to check it again its in my massive documents and colections of papers!!!!!

I need to come up with a better organization system my closet is full of stuff!!!! 🙂 Which is good!

-Daniel

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Daniel,

I don’t have my husband’s trees in a format to send you yet. I only have all his lines in hand-written pedigree charts because I am still in the process of trying to break down some brick walls. As soon as I get it all into my PAF program, I will send you a descendancy report.

Emilie
—– Original Message —–
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican

Wow I love your comment Emilie!!!

Its funny, in Mexico its common to hear “oh soy espanol” or “soy frances” etc…but the European Mexicans

hardly ever say there mejicano. Once they come to the US then they start saying “soy mejicano”. Its the same

deal in the US, we say oh were Spanish, French or Italian etc….I do identify as Spanish in the US because

my my moms side is more recently Spanish immigrants to Mexico late 1800s. My dad is mostly Portuguese-Mexican.

I think in the US we tend to americanize and the ones that can assimilate, which was common to hear my mom

say shes white and shes born in Mexico. I think people in the US tend to seperate us Spanish speakers into our

own race; where inreality hispanos can be white, black or asian, its not a race. Then it annoys me when they dont

believe I speak Spanish!

I dont think the Aztecas are Mexican in my opinion they would be native american. I think mejicano means a descendant

of the colonist who created Mexico and all those who later immigrated and assimilated into Mexican society. I dont think

Mexican is a race, all throughout Mexico youll see different cultues, from European to native american; its a spectrum!

I hope to go to Mexico next summer, I always have a good time when I go!

Do you think you could send my your husbands’s pedigree it would be cool

to see how were related. I have ancestors all over Los Altos and surrounding

alteno provinces.

-Daniel

_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec&slideid=1&media=aero-shake-7second&listid=1&stop=1&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009