Hi Robert:

I also belong to the same Haplogroup as you: E1b1b1- M35. I had my YDNA
analyzed by Genetree.for 36 markers. I am interested in comparing them to
yours to see how many we have in common. Could you please send me a copy of
your markers?

Thank you.

John Gonzalez
Wildomar, CA.

—– Original Message —–
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:52
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y DNA Update

> Hello Everyone, seeing the post today in regards to Y DNA results…

Hi Robert,
This was not boring AT ALL. Thank you for taking the time to write out a
fuller explanation of your DNA findings. My grandfather (surname Torres) did
a DNA test which we then did a deep clade on and got the following results:
R1b1b2a1b; or shorthand: R-P312. According to this test, he came up negative
for most mutations (L21- M153- M222- M37- M65- P312+ P66- SRY2627- U152-),
except P312 which I thought was the least “descriptive.” I would love any
additional information you or others may have on this DNA result.

-Esperanza

On 6/29/09 10:52 AM, “gandalf3.1@netzero.com”
wrote:

> Hello Everyone, seeing the post today in regards to Y DNA results, It
> occurred to me that I said I would share my results when they came in. Sorry I
> didn’t do this sooner, although I’m sure no one was losing sleep over it ( HA
> !) My Y DNA results are E1b1b1a2 Shorthand E-V13. It is the 3rd most common
> haplogroup among European men and considered one of the core or founding
> groups in Europe. It is the only E subclade that is found in low frequencies
> (2% ) in N. Africa. This subclade is associated with the Balkans where the
> largest worldwide percentage of E-V13 is found. It is used to identify ancient
> peoples such as the Illyrians, Thracians and Macedonians, as well as Greeks.
> Modern populations that show high percentages of E-V13 are Albanians,
> Peloponnesian Greeks, Bulgarians and Macedonians.
>
> As far as Spain is concerned, it is found in low numbers and mostly confined
> to the west of the country, the highest percentages being found in Extremadura
> (9%), Galicia (7%) and NW Castile (6%). It was, at one time, thought to be
> found in Spain due to ancient Greek exploration and settlement, but Greek
> settlements noted are only found on the east coast in the regions of Cataluña
> and Valencia. The vast majority of ³E² Y DNA in Spain is associated with the
> Berbers, but this is sub clade E-M81.
>
> One theory as to how a DNA marker so prevalent in the Balkans and the Eastern
> Mediterranean made it’s way to Western Europe and Spain can be found in a town
> in Wales called Abegele. A study was conducted involving the town and out of
> 18 men tested, 7 tested positive for the marker E-V13. A wider study was
> conducted and it concluded that 40 % of the men in the town carried the E-V13
> marker. It turns out in antiquity; Abergele was an important Roman town. It
> was not garrisoned by Romans Italians, but by Thracian auxiliaries and other
> men with a Balkan origin. A similar scenario could also apply to Spain,
> perhaps the marker made it’s way there with auxiliaries in the Roman army ?
> The E-V13 marker also found it’s way into Afghanistan and Pakistan with the
> men in Alexander the Great’s army. A small percentage is found amongst groups
> who claim these men as their ancestors.
>
> So what does it all mean?well, for one, I’m the only E-V13 on Gary Felix’s
> website, the ³Geneology of Mexico². There are others who have the same 12 37
> marker results, but have not done the deep clade test, so who knows ? As far
> as helping me with my genealogy studies, as of yet it has not. I’m thinking
> that my ancestors in Spain may have come from one of the western provinces,
> perhaps Extremadura, but it¹s all speculation at this point. Sorry to bore you
> all ! Thanks for your patience!
>
> Robert ~
>
>
>

Robert,
Thanks for sharing the info. It is interesting to learn about the results of these studies. I think it would be great if your post were translated to Spanish for those in México that participate in Nuestros Ranchos. What area of Jalisco, Zacatecas or Aguascalientes are your Mexican ancestors from?

Armando

“So what does it all mean?well, for one, I’m the only E-V13 on Gary Felix’s website, the “Geneology of Mexico”. There are others who have the same 12 37 marker results, but have not done the deep clade test, so who knows ? As far as helping me with my genealogy studies, as of yet it has not. I’m thinking that my ancestors in Spain may have come from one of the western provinces, perhaps Extremadura, but it’s all speculation at this point. Sorry to bore you all ! Thanks for your patience!

Robert”

Robert,

You are welcome to email Gary Felix and see what he thinks about your haplogroup but I doubt that you will get more information than what you already expressed. The E-series of haplogroups can be grouped into the Mediterranean/Semitic group of Y-DNA. So, you should not be surprised if you found yourself related to a Jew, a Berber, or whoever was in the southern part of the Mediterranean “pond”—same gene pool, same Semitic/Mediterranean stock.

Gary and a number of us have debated these sort of results ad nauseum for the last five years. Unfortunately, I await a “quantum leap” in this DNA business because all we seem to be doing DNA-wise, in my mind, is grouping us in categories which are well known inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula: Jews, Berbers, Arabs, Celts/Basques, Visigoths (Germans), “Romans,” and even the Vikings; all these people invaded the Iberian peninsula. So, your gggggg—ggg grandfather may have been a Jew or a Berber or an Arab or “North African.” Hmmm. Yes, but maybe this is not the information you wanted. Maybe it is information you wanted.

Ten generations is approximately 300 years, i.e. gets you back to 1709. One generation is you. The next generation is your mother and father, 2 ancestors. The next generation is your grandparents generation, 4 ancestors. Next generation, 8 ancestors. Etc. etc. Therefore, using math, in 300 years you have 2 to the 10th distinct ancestors. You have 1024 ancestors from 1709 time frame, so your Y-DNA is 1/1024th of those ancestors since it only reflects the Y-DNA of your father’s father’s father’s father’s…….father.

Hang in there with this seemingly complicated comment, which in reality is not complicated at all. Admittedly, some of those ancestors probably intermarried so you maybe you have less than 1024 ancestors from 1709. But if there were no intermarriages, then one more generation, the eleventh, gives you 2048 distinct ancestors. Can you imagine if you go back 500-600 years (Isabella and Ferdinand) and there are no intermarriages—-a mind boggling number of ancestors.

So. So. What you have to conclude from this type of argument/discussion is that many, many, many of us from a certain area are very, very, very, very likely related because, if you think about it for more than a few minutes and think about how many people there are now and how many few people there were back then, then we have to have many common ancestors in Old Mexico—forget about Iberia, forget the Balkans, forget Europe, forget them and think about the math. Bottom line, there were very few people back then and there are a lot of us now.

We are branches of a few trees. I am trying to not sound condescending; trust me.

As one of my Mexican-American genealogy friends, Robert Tarin says, “we are all related.”

Think about it. The math majors will understand in a second.

Ed

p.s. Extremadura is one of the “Rayas de Portugal” where many of the original
settlers (and Jews) of Mexico came from.

Gentlemen,

The Y-DNA test can offer some surprises and leave you with more questions
instead of answers. I expected a variety of possible origins, except the one
found. So far, I’m the only
one in the study to turn up Haplogroup O. Although my Robledo family line
claimed. Asturias as their homeland, it is actualy South Asia, most likley
the Phillipines.

Eric Robledo Edgar

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 8:47 PM, wrote:

> “So what does it all mean?well, for one, I’m the only E-V13 on Gary Felix’s
> website, the “Geneology of Mexico”. There are others who have the same 12
> 37 marker results, but have not done the deep clade test, so who knows ? As
> far as helping me with my genealogy studies, as of yet it has not. I’m
> thinking that my ancestors in Spain may have come from one of the western
> provinces, perhaps Extremadura, but it’s all speculation at this point.
> Sorry to bore you all ! Thanks for your patience!
>
> Robert”
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> You are welcome to email Gary Felix and see what he thinks about your
> haplogroup but I doubt that you will get more information than what you
> already expressed. The E-series of haplogroups can be grouped into the
> Mediterranean/Semitic group of Y-DNA. So, you should not be surprised if you
> found yourself related to a Jew, a Berber, or whoever was in the southern
> part of the Mediterranean “pond”—same gene pool, same
> Semitic/Mediterranean stock.
> Gary and a number of us have debated these sort of results ad nauseum for
> the last five years. Unfortunately, I await a “quantum leap” in this DNA
> business because all we seem to be doing DNA-wise, in my mind, is grouping
> us in categories which are well known inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula:
> Jews, Berbers, Arabs, Celts/Basques, Visigoths (Germans), “Romans,” and
> even the Vikings; all these people invaded the Iberian peninsula. So, your
> gggggg—ggg grandfather may have been a Jew or a Berber or an Arab or
> “North African.” Hmmm. Yes, but maybe this is not the information you
> wanted. Maybe it is information you wanted.
>
> Ten generations is approximately 300 years, i.e. gets you back to 1709. One
> generation is you. The next generation is your mother and father, 2
> ancestors. The next generation is your grandparents generation, 4 ancestors.
> Next generation, 8 ancestors. Etc. etc. Therefore, using math, in 300 years
> you have 2 to the 10th distinct ancestors. You have 1024 ancestors from 1709
> time frame, so your Y-DNA is 1/1024th of those ancestors since it only
> reflects the Y-DNA of your father’s father’s father’s father’s…….father.
>
> Hang in there with this seemingly complicated comment, which in reality is
> not complicated at all. Admittedly, some of those ancestors probably
> intermarried so you maybe you have less than 1024 ancestors from 1709. But
> if there were no intermarriages, then one more generation, the eleventh,
> gives you 2048 distinct ancestors. Can you imagine if you go back 500-600
> years (Isabella and Ferdinand) and there are no intermarriages—-a mind
> boggling number of ancestors.
>
> So. So. What you have to conclude from this type of argument/discussion is
> that many, many, many of us from a certain area are very, very, very, very
> likely related because, if you think about it for more than a few minutes
> and think about how many people there are now and how many few people there
> were back then, then we have to have many common ancestors in Old
> Mexico—forget about Iberia, forget the Balkans, forget Europe, forget them
> and think about the math. Bottom line, there were very few people back then
> and there are a lot of us now.
> We are branches of a few trees. I am trying to not sound condescending;
> trust me.
>
> As one of my Mexican-American genealogy friends, Robert Tarin says, “we are
> all related.”
>
> Think about it. The math majors will understand in a second.
>
>
> Ed
>
> p.s. Extremadura is one of the “Rayas de Portugal” where many of the
> original
> settlers (and Jews) of Mexico came from.

Hi Primo ! I’ve tried to send you a screen shot of my results with no luck, you can see them on The Geneology of Mexico website though ! Keep in touch !

Hi Armando ! Thanks for the reply, I’ll do my best to translate my findings in to Spanish very soon. My father’s people are from La Villa de San Jose de Bazarte in Los Altos,Jalisco , just outside of Tepatitlan.

was hesitant to jump into this thread but just thought I’d toss in my
Y-DNA results. As always with regards to DNA questions, don’t ask me no
questions and I don’t tell you no lies:

http://www.ysearch.org/haplosearch_view.asp?haplo=R1b1b2a1a&viewuid=XYESD&p=0

or

http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=XYESD&letter=&lastname=puentes&viewuid=XYESD&p=0&ped=true

joseph

======================

Joseph Puentes
NoMeat@h2opodcast.com
http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html (Vegan Environmental Solutions Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.com (Environmental Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women’s Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)

Thanks for posting them Joseph, that is the Atalantic Modal type correct ? found through out Spain and the British Isles ? Have you done much research on this haplotype ?

Hi Ed, Thanks very much for the reply. I have been in touch with Gary and found him to a warm, helpful person who is always ready to answer a question how ever silly. A couple of comments on your post though, I have no problem with the possibility of Jewish ancestry, but this marker (E-V13) according to research is an ancient non Semitic Mediterranean marker found in it’s highest levels in the Balkans, specifically among Albanians . Please don’t misunderstand this explanation as a desire to prove no Jewish ancestry, rather a clarification. I’d be proud of my ancestors if they were Martians. As for Berber ancestry, the Berbers do belong to a very specific E sub clade which is E-M81, called specifically the Berber marker, it is present in over 90 percent of Berber men. My group is found at it’s lowest levels in North Africa, according to some studies as low a 0.09 percent. E-M81 is found at moderate levels in Spain, E-V13 is found at very low levels in Spain. There is no such thing as a Jewish marker, no more than there is a Catholic or Protestant marker. I find it disturbing that we as Hispanics Latinos continue to be obsessed with purity of blood or proving one a Jew or not a Jew. An old saying goes that the grandees of Medieval Spain did not want to trace their lineage back to far as many of them had Jewish blood, the sadder for them, Spain was in ruin after it expelled the Moors and Jews. As for Extremadura having a large community of Jews, this may be true, but no more than Toledo, Burgos or Madrid. I haven’t found my ancestral seat in Spain yet, it was only speculation in regards to Extremadura. I do know for a fact though, via DNA evidence that the progenitor of my Y line lived among the mountains of the Balkan range. Thanks for your time, Robert ~ P.S. , I do agree that we are all related, more importantly through our Humanity, not our blood.

Robert,

I am not saying your genetic data suggests a Jewish ancestry, only that it is a possibility, like many other possibilities, which is the problem with all this Y-DNA data. Yes, DNA does not lie, but it may not give you the truth of what happened, e.g. an illegitimate birth. Jews are a culture, a religion, a way of living; it is not a specific genetic type, although there are certain genetic types that were Jews. I try to not mix genes with cultures and religions but it is often not possible to mention one without mentioning the other.

Sangre limpia is an interesting concept, laughable when you consider Spanish history, which is a land that is one of the earliest mixing pots in the world. I have read, perhaps erroneously, that the blue bloods of Spain thought themselves to be of Visigoth extraction, which is bizarre since the Visigoths made up a such a short period of time in Spanish history.

Sangre limpia. Mexico adds another two layers of New World admixture: Black African and Native American Indian. Sangre limpia. Funny.

At this point, in my opinion, Y-DNA analysis will only give you a small picture of your ancestors, and even then it is a picture of a very few ancestors that existed many, many, many years ago. A paper trail is much more important in my mind but it takes an enormous amount of energy to produce, even going back two or three hundred years.

Saludos,

Ed

The Visigoths still exist today, in Spain and Spanish America. Spaniards are a mixture of Europeans, Celtic, Goth (Germanic) Suevic, Nordic and many more. The south tends to exist the Jewish and Arabic connection. While the north tends to be more of that Catholic blood. Essentially the Spaniards of today are the visigoths of the past. Limpieza de Sangre is a difficult thing to explain at times and very harsh to hear, essentially its to ‘whiten’ oneself and their descendants. This usually happened when a mestizo child (that of a European and Native American) essentially that Mestizo would marry white to make a castizo and then castizo married white again to make full European, hiding its Native American genes, from then on they would keep marrying other Spanish. If a mestizo would come along one day the whole process would repeat. A perfect example of Limpirza de Sangre would be our Moctezuma connection, Isabel married Hernan Cortes, Leonor married Valderrama, then Petronila married Navarro, who had Ana Franca. then he married Lope Esparza. By this time, no one would ever guess they would have descended from Moctezuma, as they would have looked like the average European child. It just shows the stuff our ancestors did to crazy extremes. Actuall a saying of Los Altos states, us alteños as los ‘Godos’.

“Son los de este pueblo (Los Altos de Jalisco)

de sangre de godos

todos son parientes,

y enemigos todos.”

MAriano Gonzalez Leal startes talking about the alteños and their noble ancestors that of the Visigoths and the Hidalgos. The amazing book he wrote is dedicated to Los Altos.

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Joseph, I see you commented “Spanish Origins Valley of Trucios, Province of Biscay” Do you have more info? My ancestors are from the same area, Valmaseda, but with a surname from Valle de Mena, Burgos. I won’t have my results until August though.
Armando

Armando,
Is music to my ears to hear the name Valmaseda (=Balmaseda). My father-in-law, Jose Maria Ibarreche grew up there (he was born nearby). Its a beatiful Basque town just south of Bilbao, and the frontier of Viscaya with Burgos. I was told that it was never conquered by neither by the Moors or the Spaniards. The Romans constructed a beautiful Roman bridge over the river (I got a painting of it at home by one of my wife’s aunts). On one side the bridge faces Valmaseda, and on the other, land at one time dominated by the moors. On that side, the moors added a tower to the bridge that is filled of inscriptions in arabic. I guess it served as a customs office to document trade between the two ‘nations’ at the time. You should visit it one time, the whole area is very rugged and beautiful.
What is the surname of your ancestors from that area?

Jaime Alvarado

—– Original Message —–
From: arman212@sbcglobal.net
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2009 1:17:38 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA update

Joseph, I see you commented “Spanish Origins Valley of Trucios, Province of Biscay” Do you have more info? My ancestors are from the same area, Valmaseda, but with a surname from Valle de Mena, Burgos. I won’t have my results until August though.
Armando