Hi Linda,
I’ve heard that there is a book called “Retonos de la Nueva Galicia” which contains the info you are referring to. I have been to Tepatitlan, I have heard that 113 families actually came from Spain to Los Altos and kept intermarrying as opposed to mixing with the indians. According to what I have been told, it was in the early 1500’s.
Does anyone know about it??
Gabriela
> From: romero89@earthlink.net
> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 12:15:17 -0500
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y-DNA and Jews/Spanish Language
>
> Hi all,
>
> Don’t be surprised that many of us “older” first generation Americans
> don’t speak our parents mother tongue. My father was born in
> Tepatitlan de Morelos in 1909. That was 100 years ago with 100 years
> ago attitudes. He came to the States in 1923, following his older
> brother who came a few years earlier. His brother settled in the
> “Mexican neighborhood” of Milwaukee. My father raised his family in
> the “Polish neighborhood”. My father and his sister both married
> Anglos, his brother married a Mexican. Dad told stories about his
> family back in Mexico but most of the stories were fabricated. One
> example was that his father or grandfather came from Spain. I’ve
> traced his direct male ancestors back to around 1820 and they were
> all born in Tepatitlan. So much for his pride in his heritage. It
> was the “old way.” As you can guess by my father’s age, I am not a
> spring chicken and learning a new language is not easy. I’ve picked
> up enough to read the Baptismos, etc., but not enough to follow the
> Spanish threads on this list. As someone earlier mentioned, the
> translators available online make for comical reading.
>
> I love my heritage and wish I knew more about it. I am trying, but
> it is slow going. I would like to find a fellow researcher who is
> interested in Tepatitlan. I get help when necessary, but it’s not
> the same as having a research buddy who is bilingual.
>
> Good luck to you all in your research. One day I may learn more
> Spanish. Until then, the bilingual translations on this list are
> great when they are there.
>
> Linda Romero
I have experienced the same. You just need to go to different regions in Mexico, there is no uniform “look” for a Mexican, so narrow-headed thinking.
Yo he tenido la misma experiencia (gente pinsa que no soy de Mexico y hace comentarios de Mexico o en Espanol, cuando respondo se sorprenden) . Solo se necesita viajar a las diferentes regiones de Mexico para darse cuenta de que no hay un solo “look” para los mexicanos (de todos colores y sabores), mente muy cerrada!
Gabriela
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 16:20:24 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y DNA Daniel
>
> Hey Daniel, it is crazy in regards to stereo typing any ethnic group and the way they look. It is true that most, but not all, of Anglo America thinks all Mexicans look and act the same. So many have no clue about the different groups that make up the modern Mexican, and forget about Spain ! George W. Bush himself thought Spain was located in South America ! One funny note about not looking hispanic latino is that on more than one occasion I’ve caught people talking about me or my wife in Spanish because they don’t realize I SPEAK SPANISH ! When I reply to them in Spanish, the looks on their faces are priceless. Robert~
HI Gabriela not sure if we have communicated or met before? Im Daniel, the book is really what revolve around our genealogy, alot of us on here can trace our lineage to Los Altos. If you been to Tepatitlán or anywhere in Los Altos, you can tell, the majority are really white and tall, you can find from bright brown eyes to brightest blue eyes and anything in between, greenm grey, etc. From Brunettes, blondes and black hair. The book goes into detail about our appearance. I am a fellow alteño, i lived there for about a year when I was yournger but was born in the US. The reason why there is absence of mixing is because its so high up, hence Los Altos. Even my grandpa who married his second cousin said, Why need to go down when I can marry here. I always laugh at him, he’s very funny. My mother’s family came a little late Camino-Soto, to Mexico a little after the independence but once they got there they were able to assilimilate into alteño society pretty quickly. The first thing they did was marry of their kids, to the local Spanish families, some of them González de Hermosillo, Ramírez de Mendoza, Ramírez de Cornejo and many others, within 5 years, we were related to everyone already, pretty crazy stuff. We arent the only Mexicans who didnt mix, there all over the place, the north also there was less mixing since there werent as much indians. I think it was more than 113 families but those 113 are the ones (original). About marriages, they are known to marry their close relatives, my grandpa says they try to marry a different last name (otra casa) but the marrying of same last names does occurr. The Los Altos border really extends into other parts too, like southern and eastern Zacatecas, Aguas, western Gto. and northern Michoacán and southern Jalisco this is due b/c the alteños from Los Altos travweled in and out to the sourrounding areas and settled. Hence why we are all related in that part. The alteños family of today are the same ones from the 1500s. I hope this helps, Im really bad at explaining things! -Daniel
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I agree Gabriels, I too have faced some difficult and have been hurt of comments people make. They assume Mexican is a certain look. I think they forget Europeans did immigrate to Mexico. I also think its people opinion what is Mexican to me, may not be Mexican too someone else. Where we come from in Los Altos, the usual Mexican will be have very European characteristics, hence ever since I was a child, that was a Mexicn for me since the influence and my family around, My friends today, have other views of what is MExican. Just like the US, Mexicano is a pluralcultural country, there are white, blacks, mestizos, etc. Its not good to be narrow minded. -Daniel
Hi Robert, I was always taught as a child, Hispanics/Latinos do not exist, I was always told we are all either white, black or asian or native American. Hence ehy I dont associate my self with Hispanic, its just another way to try to seperate spanish-speaking people from Anglo America. I was told I am white and Mexican. I think its a Los Altos thing, my grandpa is very pro-Spanish about his roots. As I said before, I always laugh at him.-Daniel
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A long time ago, even before being aware of the possible Jewish family
Med/Semitic – E1b1b1
( http://www.ysearch.org/search_results.asp?uid=883H3&min_markers=8&mismatches_max=0&mismatch_type=sliding&mismatches_sliding_starti
ng_marker=8®ion=) 13 25 13 09 18 18 11 12 12 13 12 30 15 09 09 11 12 26
14 20 32 15 16 16 18
I have a memory working as deli waitress. Every single one of these
woman thought I was Jewish. I thought them sweet, as I thought that they just
wanted to relate to me. Personally, I have always thought I looked liked
the typical Mexican person….a bit of this, a bit of that…a face that all
would adopt.
As it turns out, there seems to be truth in the old adage “la sangre
llame”…..and with the probing of family lineage, they admitted that indeed
they knew that they carried Jewish blood in them. (Nuevo Leon lineage).
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Hi Linda, Im Daniel Méndez del Camino Ive seen you a couple times and your posts, not sure if you know me. I dont think your father was wrong he is of Spanish blood, true, maybe his grandfather didnt come from Spain but his ancestors did. I was always told to be proud of your Spanish roots, we come from a great people, states my deceased grandmother when I was younger. I think thats what matters, we all should be proud of what makes us and who we are, nothing can change that. I am proud of my roots, Los Altos is a beautful place, the architecture is gorgeous and the food is very good.
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Hi Gabriela and Robert, I am also Casillas y Cabrera, HAHA, everyone is related after all this time. Wonder how they started, did the first families meet and just decided “Let marry each other”. Ive always had the curiosity. -Daniel
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Robert, the link info was cut out in the middle. The complete link is http://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/134696768219527874/ThegeneticlegacyallGraphs.pdf
It is a good map with good pie charts but it lacks an explanation of the data.
El enlace al mapa de ADN en España faltaba “134696768219527874” asi que la dirección completa es http://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/134696768219527874/ThegeneticlegacyallGraphs.pdf
Es un buen mapa con gráficas circulares aun falta una explicación de la información.
Armando
Hey Mando, Thanks for fixing the link ! The chart shows the frequency of specific haplotypes in the different regions of Spain. The last bigger pie graph at the bottom shows the haplotypes associated with Sephardic heritage by percentage in the countries of Spain,Portugal, Greece ,Bulgaria etc. As you can see, the most frequent haplotypes associated with Jewish heritage are J2,J and G…followed by R1b. Does this mean that everyone who has these haplotypes are Jewish ? Absolutely not… just as it doesn’t mean that there are no Jewish E1b1b’s. The specific E subclade assosiated with the Sephardim is V-22. Thanks ! Robert~
Hi Gabriela, you never know ! We could be related ! I worked construction with a man from Jalisco, he said that all the altenos were related in one way or another,he also said everyone in the state of Jalisco knew that those from Los Altos were gauchupines Spaniards or Europeans. Hope I spelled that right ! What part of Los Altos is your family from ? regards, Robert~
We have to be careful with that word, not sure if that man said that word but Gauchupines in Mexico is the quivalent of saying “stupid white person”. I know many people would get offended if called that, I know I would. It was a word to discriminate against Mexicans of European descent. As to the alteñs, yes everyone is related, ca. 1602 is when everyone starting intermarrying. Little did they know that within 50-100 years everyone wiould be related, creating a really small gene pool. Thus not having much hcance of marrying someone out from your blood. -Daniel
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:39:28 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y DNA Gonzalez Casillas
>
> Hi Gabriela, you never know ! We could be related ! I worked construction with a man from Jalisco, he said that all the altenos were related in one way or another,he also said everyone in the state of Jalisco knew that those from Los Altos were gauchupines Spaniards or Europeans. Hope I spelled that right ! What part of Los Altos is your family from ? regards, Robert~
Hi Daniel, He knew exactly what the word ment, although he said it with a smile on his face . He felt that Altenos were a bit too haughty for is taste , too proud. I’m not familar with the way people from the different states or pueblos of Mexico interact with each other, but I’ve learned some since then. Robert ~
hola,
“Gachupin” is to spanish people the same that “gringo” is to americans
2009/7/6 Daniel M�ndez del Camino
>
> We have to be careful with that word, not sure if that man said that word
> but Gauchupines in Mexico is the quivalent of saying “stupid white person”.
> I know many people would get offended if called that, I know I would. It was
> a word to discriminate against Mexicans of European descent. As to the
> alteñs, yes everyone is related, ca. 1602 is when everyone starting
> intermarrying. Little did they know that within 50-100 years everyone wiould
> be related, creating a really small gene pool. Thus not having much hcance
> of marrying someone out from your blood. -Daniel
>
> > To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> > Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:39:28 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y DNA Gonzalez Casillas
> >
> > Hi Gabriela, you never know ! We could be related ! I worked construction
> with a man from Jalisco, he said that all the altenos were related in one
> way or another,he also said everyone in the state of Jalisco knew that those
> from Los Altos were gauchupines Spaniards or Europeans. Hope I spelled
> that right ! What part of Los Altos is your family from ? regards, Robert~
> > — — — — — — — — — — — — —
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> >
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You’re right about the word Gauchupines, when I was in Jerez someone used it and it was as a put down. I did find it interesting that prejudice exists in Mexico just as in other countries. I guess the feelings against the original Spaniards are alive and well after 500 years but oppression is hard to get by and has a long memory.
Linda in B.C.
— On Mon, 7/6/09, Daniel M�ndez del Camino wrote:
From: Daniel M�ndez del Camino
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y DNA Gonzalez Casillas
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 4:23 PM
We have to be careful with that word, not sure if that man said that word but Gauchupines in Mexico is the quivalent of saying “stupid white person”. I know many people would get offended if called that, I know I would. It was a word to discriminate against Mexicans of European descent. As to the alteñs, yes everyone is related, ca. 1602 is when everyone starting intermarrying. Little did they know that within 50-100 years everyone wiould be related, creating a really small gene pool. Thus not having much hcance of marrying someone out from your blood. -Daniel
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gandalf3.1@netzero.com
> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 15:39:28 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Y DNA Gonzalez Casillas
>
> Hi Gabriela, you never know ! We could be related ! I worked construction with a man from Jalisco, he said that all the altenos were related in one way or another,he also said everyone in the state of Jalisco knew that those from Los Altos were gauchupines Spaniards or Europeans. Hope I spelled that right ! What part of Los Altos is your family from ? regards, Robert~
Hey Daniel:
I was born, raised in Mexico til’ I was about ten, and then again as an
adult, I lived in Mexico for ten years. My experience is that the word “
Gachupin” was used exclusively for Spanish people. Not used for all “white”
people as you state, there are other names for them, not very nice, I might
add.
A quick look on the internet will give you the following definitions:
1.Gachupin=Spanish established in Mexico or Guatemala.
2.Name given in Mexico to a native of Spain, who in Lima is called
“Chapeton”, and in Buenos Aires, “Maturrango” (SpanishDict.com)
Google and Yahoo both, translate it as Gachupin=Gachupin
3.Oxford Spanish Dictionary, Third Edition:
“Gachupin” m (Mex pey) Spaniard.
My note: “pey” above stands for perjorative.
In Sonora we had a friend from Oviedo and he told me that in Spain gachupin
meant “horseman” I have no idea how true that is, but I had no reason to
doubt him.
Ask your grandfather, he’ll probably knows the origin of the word.
John Gonzalez.
